2020 US Election (Part Two)

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Fascism is far-right authoritarian.

Fascism is specific and narrowly-defined movement within the broader, multi-facetted monster that is far-right-wing authoritarian extremism - it is NOT a generic, general-purpose catch-all for every far-right-wing authoritarian extremist movement. That's a big part of the clumsy, irresponsible, and counter-productive use of terminology I've been going on about.
 
Fascism is specific and narrowly-defined movement within the broader, multi-facetted monster that is far-right-wing authoritarian extremism - it is NOT a generic, general-purpose catch-all for every far-right-wing authoritarian extremist movement. That's a big part of the clumsy, irresponsible, and counter-productive use of terminology I've been going on about.

I literally gave you a more specific definition, you dishonest ****. I said that initially to point out how Obama, a centre-left legislator who obeys the democratic rules, could not possibly be fascist. I literally said

or any of the other hallmarks of fascism.
 
I literally gave you a more specific definition, you dishonest ****. I said that initially to point out how Obama, a centre-left legislator who obeys the democratic rules, could not possibly be fascist. I literally said

You gave me nothing of value, and called it something important. I'm not the dishonest one here. "Hallmarks of Fascism," are called out like cryptid, UFO, and Elvis sightings, much of the time, and they're always so subjectively defined when used in that way such to support a certain narrative - and THAT is a dishonest tactic. What about George W. Bush's "hallmarks of Fascism," during his Presidency? Oh, I forgot. Coming out of retirement and joining the fight against Trump absolves him of all of his sins, crimes, and abuses of power with the public.
 
Ok, yet this isn't in line with Obama never allowing other states to invade Syria, while Trump did. How does that make Trump less involved in Syria's doom than Obama?

The thing is, the ME in the 4 years of Trump's rule is massively more dangerous than it was when Obama left. People in America may have not noticed, but apart from full-on wars going on in four countries (Syria, Yemen, Libya, Iraq), there is mayhem in more and troop movements all around.
I won't be surprised if the whole thing turns into an actual Gigantic war.

I dont know about a full on war in Iraq, but Libya, Syria and Yemen started on Obama's watch. The war in Syria started winding down once Trump reversed course on the Obama policy of toppling Assad, ISIS lost their main arms supplier. Well, SA, Turkey and the Gulf states might have continued arming the anti-Assad forces. But ISIS needed the cover provided by Obama.

American leadership created victims and then abandoned them after the change in leadership. You approved of what the new leadership has done and I pointed out how it fit my list of proto-fascist actions Trump took. I only jumped in after you said nice things about Trump. Then, when confronted with proto-fascist aspect of his platform, you created (or explained) apologetics for it. Then I mocked you.

So...The ban triggered your fascism meter, not the destruction of Syria by terrorists doing Obama's dirty work. I haven't posted my opinion about the ban. If we took in refugees and they didn't murder a bunch of people the ban would be harder to defend, but if Trump did let in people and some of them did attack us I suspect Trump's critics would be blaming him for letting terrorists into the country.

Libya? That was the UK and France.

Not according to Hillary, 'we came, we saw, he died LOL'. Libya wouldn't have happened without Obama's approval.
 
I literally gave you a more specific definition, you dishonest ****. I said that initially to point out how Obama, a centre-left legislator who obeys the democratic rules, could not possibly be fascist. I literally said

Quite a few things there don't fit Trump though. Not a bad definition no idea who the guy is who wrote it.

Not all right wing authoritarians are fascist. All fascists are right wing authoritarians IMHO.
 
Quite a few things there don't fit Trump though. Not a bad definition no idea who the guy is who wrote it.

Not all right wing authoritarians are fascist. All fascists are right wing authoritarians IMHO.

Then again Trump really looks and moves like Mussolini...

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Quite a few things there don't fit Trump though. Not a bad definition no idea who the guy is who wrote it.

Not all right wing authoritarians are fascist. All fascists are right wing authoritarians IMHO.

Robert Paxton says that fascism is
"a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood"

Fits Trump and the modern GOP to a tee. Literally everything from his slogan, to his rhetorical style and political obsessions is about America being in decline and everybody mocking the US.

and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites,

Also fits Trump. His movement is rhetorically populist, yet are perfect running dogs for the traditional elite, as they cut taxes, deregulate and stack the courts with Federalist society judges who can't wait to turn the US into a perfect corporate dreamscape, which is a nightmare for everybody else.

abandons democratic liberties

Gerrymandering, stacking the census, thugs hanging around polling places, trying to destroy the post office just to divert some ballots, open embracement of the Electoral College, voter id laws, and using felony disenfranchisement to target activists.

and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion

Internal cleansing, absolutely. Muslims and Mexicans are enemies. And Democrats are considered to be traitors and scum for daring to oppose Trump in anyway. You don't have your supporters wearing these shirts in a healthy rhetorical space.

Spoiler Image :

Dj2e0w9VAAAraKs.jpg


The only weak point of this is an external expansion and even than Trump does have an obsession with buying Greenland, for no reason but it would look nice on the map. But that tracks considering that European fascism involved smaller countries, while the US has vast tracks of land, it already barely uses.
 
Robert Paxton says that fascism is
"a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood"

Fits Trump and the modern GOP to a tee. Literally everything from his slogan, to his rhetorical style and political obsessions is about America being in decline and everybody mocking the US.



Also fits Trump. His movement is rhetorically populist, yet are perfect running dogs for the traditional elite, as they cut taxes, deregulate and stack the courts with Federalist society judges who can't wait to turn the US into a perfect corporate dreamscape, which is a nightmare for everybody else.



Gerrymandering, stacking the census, thugs hanging around polling places, trying to destroy the post office just to divert some ballots, open embracement of the Electoral College, voter id laws, and using felony disenfranchisement to target activists.



Internal cleansing, absolutely. Muslims and Mexicans are enemies. And Democrats are considered to be traitors and scum for daring to oppose Trump in anyway. You don't have your supporters wearing these shirts in a healthy rhetorical space.

Spoiler Image :

Dj2e0w9VAAAraKs.jpg


The only weak point of this is an external expansion and even than Trump does have an obsession with buying Greenland, for no reason but it would look nice on the map. But that tracks considering that European fascism involved smaller countries, while the US has vast tracks of land, it already barely uses.

Still a stretch. Trump's devotees are a minority, American police were a problem under Obama (sperate issue),

Anti Mexican and Muslim immigration doesn't make you a fascist either. Other non fascist countries have had race based migration policies.
 
Still a stretch. Trump's devotees are a minority, American police were a problem under Obama (sperate issue),

Anti Mexican and Muslim immigration doesn't make you a fascist either. Other non fascist countries have had race based migration policies.

Nazi devotees were a minority. Hitlers Nazi party never won a majority, it was just handed power by the Conservative Elite who thought they could harness them.

And American Police are a local affair. There are 17,985 separate police departments in the US. Obama outside of legislation which the Republican congress would not sign had very little recourse. He put together the President's Task Force on 21st Century Policing, which some departments signed on to. He also forced some problem departments into consent decrees.

Trump got rid of as much as he could and started telling police to brutalise people.
 
there is no American Deep State , that's just adoption of stuff from one deplorable place to create mental conditions in American Joe Public to enable actions that might have shocked average American from the Cold War era . American foreign policy keeps to same targets , it is Trump's failures and stuff that it looks erratic . Bush ll wasted treasury as Republican Presidents do , Obama filled the treasury for more war by his successor as Democrat Presidents do . This was through letting others to do the fighting . Even if France itself ran out of steam in Libya in just a few days and America had to carry out 60% of the air attacks . Which was covered by the Danes(?) running out of their entire laser guided bomb stocks while serving in a NATO operation . This chaos will of course unleash forces which in the end will specifically come and kill us all , but it is sad! As Trump wastes years of American designs in a day , you know , taunting this thousands of years of history and stuff of us Turks ; insulting even that we are so worthless . So much that we are relishing 4 years of Biden Presidency where he will do everything against us , without the attitude ...
 
How many of those 70 names are responsible for the last 20 years of Mideast misadventure and twiddling their thumbs, losing ground to Red China? I'd rather have Trump make boorish remarks and the right policy decisions than another two decades of top-level screwups that'll cause a further decline in America's standing.
Uhm, the US is entering international pariah territory here:

Iran sanctions: nearly all UN security council unites against 'unpleasant' US
Letters from 13 of 15 members underscore US isolation as it seeks to ‘snap back’ measures against Tehran

The extent of US isolation at the UN has been driven home by formal letters from 13 of the 15 security council members opposing Trump administration attempts to extend the economic embargo on Iran.

Spoiler :
The letters by the council members were all issued in the 24 hours since the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, came to the UN’s New York headquarters to declare Iran in non-compliance with a 2015 nuclear deal.

Under that deal (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA), comprehensive UN sanctions on Iran would be restored 30 days after the declaration. But almost every other council member has issued letters saying that the US has no standing to trigger this sanctions “snapback” because it left the JCPOA in May 2018.

The US has said it is still technically a participant because it is named as one in a 2015 security council resolution endorsing the JCPOA. The argument was rejected by France, the UK and Germany even before Pompeo made his declaration.

Since then, Reuters reported that it had seen letters from Russia, China, Germany, Belgium, Vietnam, Niger, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, South Africa, Indonesia, Estonia and Tunisia, all rejecting the US position.

Only the Dominican Republic has yet to issue a formal letter on the subject. Last week the Caribbean state was the only security council member to back the US when it tried to extend an arms embargo on Iran. Pompeo visited the island two days after that vote.

Council members who normally consider themselves US allies on most issues said they would have supported Washington if a compromise had been found, in which the arms embargo could have been extended for a limited time period. The defeat of the US resolution on the embargo led directly to Pompeo’s legal gambit to try to snap back UN sanctions.

Diplomats at the UN said the depth of US isolation was in part a reflection of the abrasive style used by Pompeo, who accused Europeans of choosing to “side with the ayatollahs”, and the US ambassador to the UN, Kelly Craft, a political appointee.

“The Americans were actually being over the top in their ridiculousness,” one diplomat said.

“The underlying point here is that most countries on the security council basically agree with the US that Iran is not a nice country and it having nuclear weapons and more arms is not a good thing,” the diplomat said. “But the Americans misplayed their hand so often, so aggressively, that they isolated themselves from people not on policy, but on just being unpleasant.”
I’m a little confused; I think I’ve only mentioned Obama once in recent memory. What I mean about him with Joe Biden is that he needs to talk about reasons to elect Joe Biden, not Obama’s Vice President, if that makes any sense.

Sorry, lunch break at work over! :)
You actually said this a few hours ago:
I don’t have anything against the guy, especially if he’s going to (a.) make his own path separate from Obama and (b.) not entangle himself too much with the radical party members that want to turn the whole country upside down.
And also a few months ago I remember you said that you voted for Trump to spite Obama.
 
there is no American Deep State.

It's quite amazing how mainstream and frequent - and believed and given full credential and legitimacy - a term coined by marginal, radical, paranoid, crackpot conspiracy theorist and REALLY wonky ideologue Lyndon LaRouche has now become, isn't it?
 
When the second most Liberal/Left Senator isn't 'progressive' enough.

When self-proclaimed 'progressive' fence themselves off into a tiny sliver of the electorate and political space, of course, those 'progressives' won't get what they want.


You are kind of displaying that the political illiteracy of the US is also live and well in Australia. This video is a good; better than I can write, summation of why this “Kamala is very left/progressive” is another superficial hoax of the empty shell that has been the DNC.




I agree the progressive base is a lot smaller than it should be. Maybe a third of the Dems. To me this is due to a lot of things but mainly said political illiteracy – Americans politically self-identify themselves poorly. Progressive policy is widely popular. 87% of Dems are behind M4A, 65% of independent and 48%(!) of republicans. Yet Americans self-identify 35% Conservative, 30% Liberal and 35% independent (including lots of “Libertarians” – another political position Americans manage to bastardise to complete unrecognition).

If on the coffee break proclaiming you are a democratic socialist was not a greater social risk than proclaiming you are a liberal or conservative and if the left was not stigmatised by every media outlet in the land, hogtied by “lesser evil” narratives and if the left was not railed against by every power structure ever in place the progressive left, like in other nations, would likely have a third of the entire electorate and be a very dominant political factor even in America. Maybe more since there is such widespread unemployment, poverty, addictions and misery with parents, family and friends closely affected by it in all walks of life.

A Bernie nom would have done a lot to facilitate such a shift and someone offering M4A in a pandemic would stand a better chance against Trump than Biden/Harris offering nothing exciting at all. Wait! I get it. It’s over, and the choice is Biden/Harris or Trump/Pence. But since what led up to this situation, where the decision is basically ‘half a plate of ****’ vs the full plate, is so reminiscing of 2016 and seems to be a reoccurring trend, I think it is still worthy of discussion for the betterment of the future. No matter how much it triggers your conservative never-Trump reflexes.
 
Trump got rid of as much as he could and started telling police to brutalise people.

Trump's Attorney General even sent out federal agents to brutalize people, and arrest and hold some without charges, etc, etc.
 
You are kind of displaying that the political illiteracy of the US is also live and well in Australia. This video is a good; better than I can write, summation of why this “Kamala is very left/progressive” is another superficial hoax of the empty shell that has been the DNC.




I agree the progressive base is a lot smaller than it should be. Maybe a third of the Dems. To me this is due to a lot of things but mainly said political illiteracy – Americans politically self-identify themselves poorly. Progressive policy is widely popular. 87% of Dems are behind M4A, 65% of independent and 48%(!) of republicans. Yet Americans self-identify 35% Conservative, 30% Liberal and 35% independent (including lots of “Libertarians” – another political position Americans manage to bastardise to complete unrecognition).

If on the coffee break proclaiming you are a democratic socialist was not a greater social risk than proclaiming you are a liberal or conservative and if the left was not stigmatised by every media outlet in the land, hogtied by “lesser evil” narratives and if the left was not railed against by every power structure ever in place the progressive left, like in other nations, would likely have a third of the entire electorate and be a very dominant political factor even in America. Maybe more since there is such widespread unemployment, poverty, addictions and misery with parents, family and friends closely affected by it in all walks of life.

A Bernie nom would have done a lot to facilitate such a shift and someone offering M4A in a pandemic would stand a better chance against Trump than Biden/Harris offering nothing exciting at all. Wait! I get it. It’s over, and the choice is Biden/Harris or Trump/Pence. But since what led up to this situation, where the decision is basically ‘half a plate of ****’ vs the full plate, is so reminiscing of 2016 and seems to be a reoccurring trend, I think it is still worthy of discussion for the betterment of the future. No matter how much it triggers your conservative never-Trump reflexes.

The Ghost of McCarthy still, to this day, is a an effective scare tactic against truly left-wing reform movements (not just the soppy, insincere, crumbs-from-the-table of the Democratic Party Establishment) - as well, as I've also pointed out lately, McCarthy's rhetoric and way of thinking and advocating "solutions," (I use the term lightly) is still also alive and well in people, even posters on these very forums, forcing an absolute, black-and-white socio-political dichotomy with no nuance, no middle grounds, no rational or sensible points of view, and everyone must conform fully to one side or the other or be arbitrarily "declared," as one side, often with no evidence or reason and usually the opposite of the one making the witch-hunting pronouncement. And any criticism, or even attempt at clarification, of someone's extreme side of things gets you "declared," to the other extreme, as well. And once you're "declared to the other side," you are thoroughly villainized as if you really did belong at that extreme, even you almost certainly don't. This is the toxic Legacy of the Ghost of McCarthy - and it must be fully and completely exorcised from American society, culture, media, and politics before any true betterment or advancement can TRULY be done.
 
It's quite amazing how mainstream and frequent - and believed and given full credential and legitimacy - a term coined by marginal, radical, paranoid, crackpot conspiracy theorist and REALLY wonky ideologue Lyndon LaRouche has now become, isn't it?
because the only Deep State , which is not an endearing term at all , is the Old Republic in Turkey , from 1971 , where the carefully nurtured Baathist like Leftist coup was stalled on March the 9th and was replaced by a much milder Right wing intervention on the 12th . Which still managed to wreck the country enough . Santa Süleyman , the Right wing Prime Minister who naturally took his hat and left his office without resistance was better known as Morrison Süleyman at the time , for the period he had previously worked in the American company so named , was attacked in the press , for not climbing on the tank as the current phraselogy has it . So , his Foreign Minister of many goverments told the country that they could not do a single thing ... Because "iyi saatte olsunlar" (a term that might be used as the powers that be) had dug so many tunnels and stuff under the country , as the phrase goes in Turkish . This is where the Deep comes from . What exist in America is average American intel operative who used to do stuff abroad before figuring out he could do the same in the US , too . Continious use of Deep State to describe US stuff is a prelude to involve Turks as closet Jews or even worse as tools of Jews for end-of-the-world ethnic cleansing , Holocaust ll with Anglosaxon efficiency . Thank you all , you people , am quite fine .
 
How is keeping our troops there constructive though? Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of seeing our soldiers die for someone else's country. So if pulling out now destabilizes those countries further, then so be it. At least it won't be our soldiers dying in the ensuing chaos.
I completely agree with the notion that we do need to begin withdrawing from the Middle East. However, pulling out of places like northern Syria to leave beleaguered ethnic groups to be genocided so Russia can expand its influence is not the way to go about it.
Syria's more stable
Poison gassing the opposition under cover of Russian air strikes will do that.
 
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Uhm, the US is entering international pariah territory here:

Iran sanctions: nearly all UN security council unites against 'unpleasant' US
Letters from 13 of 15 members underscore US isolation as it seeks to ‘snap back’ measures against Tehran

The extent of US isolation at the UN has been driven home by formal letters from 13 of the 15 security council members opposing Trump administration attempts to extend the economic embargo on Iran.

Spoiler :
The letters by the council members were all issued in the 24 hours since the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, came to the UN’s New York headquarters to declare Iran in non-compliance with a 2015 nuclear deal.

Under that deal (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, or JCPOA), comprehensive UN sanctions on Iran would be restored 30 days after the declaration. But almost every other council member has issued letters saying that the US has no standing to trigger this sanctions “snapback” because it left the JCPOA in May 2018.

The US has said it is still technically a participant because it is named as one in a 2015 security council resolution endorsing the JCPOA. The argument was rejected by France, the UK and Germany even before Pompeo made his declaration.

Since then, Reuters reported that it had seen letters from Russia, China, Germany, Belgium, Vietnam, Niger, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, South Africa, Indonesia, Estonia and Tunisia, all rejecting the US position.

Only the Dominican Republic has yet to issue a formal letter on the subject. Last week the Caribbean state was the only security council member to back the US when it tried to extend an arms embargo on Iran. Pompeo visited the island two days after that vote.

Council members who normally consider themselves US allies on most issues said they would have supported Washington if a compromise had been found, in which the arms embargo could have been extended for a limited time period. The defeat of the US resolution on the embargo led directly to Pompeo’s legal gambit to try to snap back UN sanctions.

Diplomats at the UN said the depth of US isolation was in part a reflection of the abrasive style used by Pompeo, who accused Europeans of choosing to “side with the ayatollahs”, and the US ambassador to the UN, Kelly Craft, a political appointee.

“The Americans were actually being over the top in their ridiculousness,” one diplomat said.

“The underlying point here is that most countries on the security council basically agree with the US that Iran is not a nice country and it having nuclear weapons and more arms is not a good thing,” the diplomat said. “But the Americans misplayed their hand so often, so aggressively, that they isolated themselves from people not on policy, but on just being unpleasant.”

You actually said this a few hours ago:

And also a few months ago I remember you said that you voted for Trump to spite Obama.

The non-eternal security council members don't matter. In this particular case one sees more than just a few glaring vassals there.

Uk shouldn't have a seat there either, it is no longer a major power. India would have made more sense...
 
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Of course there's "open embracement" of the Electoral College. It's been the law of the land for two hundred years. Not openly embracing it would be constitutional revolt. Felony disenfranchisement is rolled back in recent history, not expanded. But details details. <flush>
 
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