2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Takhisis]

Everyone who opposed the Iraq war had believed in the existence of the deep state by more palatable names for their entire lives.

I'll just leave this quote for posterity, without further comment.

 

[Patine]

Everyone who opposed the Iraq war had believed in the existence of the deep state by more palatable names for their entire lives. Terms like the MIC have been around since Ike.

I opposed the Iraq War at the time, and I was using neither term. I just saw the Bush Administration ratcheting up their war crimes and violations of their own Constitution while in office.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

This sums up perfectly how I feel about the Democratic party. That face at the bottom is #mood

 

[Zardnaar]

Deep state is just code for "people who know how to run a country that disagree with me".

Includes most competent government employees.

 

[Camikaze]

I'm assuming those who aren't going to vote for Biden are happy for all state-level progressive moves (e.g. sanctuary cities, marijuana legalisation, Medicaid expansions) to be stopped in their tracks, given Trump's administration sets out to crack down on state's rights when he disagrees with the policy. I guess it's a legitimate position to hold, but it'd be nice if people at least acknowledged that they never really cared about those sorts of policies.

 

[Patine]

I'm assuming those who aren't going to vote for Biden are happy for all state-level progressive moves (e.g. sanctuary cities, marijuana legalisation, Medicaid expansions) to be stopped in their tracks, given Trump's administration sets out to crack down on state's rights when he disagrees with the policy. I guess it's a legitimate position to hold, but it'd be nice if people at least acknowledged that they never really cared about those sorts of policies.

But, but, his party can't possibly back him on that. States' Rights are a huge Republican plank. If the GOP in Congress passed such laws, or even his own cabinet enforced it, or Republican-appointed judges upheld it, they would become - *gasp* hypocrites against one of the big GOP ideological soapboxes!

 

[Sommerswerd]

Bernie would then get those boomer "always democrat" votes by default, but crucially would also mobilize independents and first-time voters. Biden won't.

Yep, we keep hearing this over and over but the ass whooping that Bernie received at the hands of Biden, courtesy of independents and first-time voters, undermines this premise completely. It made sense last cycle, a few years ago, a few months ago, a few weeks ago even... but it has been proven conclusively false... two Super Tuesdays in a row. Keep saying it all you want (obviously you will, ad nauseum), but its wrong, and it will be just as wrong the next time you say it... and the time after that... and the time after that...

Anyway, it won't matter if Biden gets the nomination. He is likely to go the way of Gore-Kerry-Hillary.

Soooo... you think Biden is going to lose, huh? Anything to add? Or is that pretty much it?

 

[Kyriakos]

Yep, we keep hearing this over and over but the ass whooping that Bernie received at the hands of Biden, courtesy of independents and first-time voters, undermines this premise completely. It made sense last cycle, a few years ago, months ago, weeks ago even... but it has been proven conclusively false... two Super Tuesdays in a row. Keep saying it all you want (obviously you will, ad nauseum), but its wrong, and it will be just as wrong the next time you say it... and the time after that... and the time after that... Soooo... you think Biden is going to lose, huh? Anything to add? Or is that pretty much it?

Boomer voters are reported to be more active than usual in the primaries - which would explain Biden's support.
Btw, isn't it time we all stopped with the antagonizing tone? I am sure we all know who'd vote for whom, so maybe respect that and co-exist.

 

[Sommerswerd]

This sums up perfectly how I feel about the Democratic party. That face at the bottom is #mood

I'm pretty skeptical that the guy in that photo montage ever voted for a Democrat a day in his life... just sayin'

The pic is still pretty funny though, and the message still resonates, even if the subject isn't a credible messenger.

Boomer voters are reported to be more active than usual in the primaries - which would explain Biden's support.
Btw, isn't it time we all stopped with the antagonizing tone? I am sure we all know who'd vote for whom, so maybe respect that and co-exist.

Kyr please... You've intentionally and unapologetically antagonized me enough on these threads that I'm unmoved by your self-serving crocodile tears. You're wrong and calling you out on it isn't "antagonizing you". If you're #triggered by someone pointing out that you're wrong... that's on you.

 

[Kyriakos]

Kyr please... You've intentionally and unapologetically antagonized me enough on these threads that I'm unmoved by your self-serving crocodile tears. You're wrong and calling you out on it isn't "antagonizing you". If you're #triggered by someone pointing out that you're wrong... that's on you.

It's ok, just know I won't be following in this road.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It's ok, just know I won't be following in this road.

Don't talk about it, be about it.

 

[Berzerker]

Jake Tapper, of all people, lays this out in this clip Kyle pulled. It's all about who they think is electable. Tim can't figure out why people think he's against single-payer while he full throatedly opposes Bernie. He professes to be in favor of the policy, he just thinks Biden has the better chance.

You don't have to watch the whole video, just the clip from CNN. It's weird to see Jake have such a moment of clarity but he actually does a good job. He uses Kerry v Dean in '04 as his example which isn't a terrible analogy. Dean was the more progressive guy in that primary.

Two points about Kulinksi, Kerry was up against a wartime president in '04 and not enough people had learned or become outraged about the lies they were told about the Iraq War - and Kerry voted for the war anyway - and the older crowd 65+ has Medicare, ofc they're not gonna be as fired up about Bernie's Medicare for all.

The Deep State has been uncovered in the various intel agencies, the FBI, the Dept of Justice more generally, the State Department, and now courtesy of Covid-19 the CDC specifically and HHS generally. It's a wonder that the Bushes got anything done at all, in retrospect. All these theoretically professionally-apolitical organizations that turn out to be conniving to bring down Republican presidents. Madness!

The Deep State supported Bush's wars, even 10 Downing Street said the fix was in for invading Iraq.

I don't think of it that way, I figure Trump just expanded the quantity of people that take the term seriously from thousands to millions. It really is still a ridiculed, paranoid, tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory term at root.

Ridiculed by Dems who supported Hillary, what a surprise. If Bernie won the WH the Deep State would still be there undermining his attempts at pulling back on the reins of the war horses.

I find it quite amusing that Trump has "legitimized," into popular and accepted, even expected, parlance, what was originally a ridiculed, paranoid, tin-foil-hat, conspiracy theory term coined by Lyndon LaRouche!

Well lets see, Clinton campaign and DNC operatives lied to Obama's FBI who enthusiastically took those lies with their own to a Fisa court to spy on their political opponent and its all just a coincidence?

Everyone who opposed the Iraq war had believed in the existence of the deep state by more palatable names for their entire lives. Terms like the MIC have been around since Ike.

The Gulf of Tonkin and Pentagon Papers gave my generation a primer on the Deep State

Deep state is just code for "people who know how to run a country that disagree with me".

Includes most competent government employees.

Its code for people who lie us into wars while smearing critics, the Deep State hates people like Daniel Ellsburg, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Tulsi Gabbard, Scott Ritter and Chelsea Manning.

I'm assuming those who aren't going to vote for Biden are happy for all state-level progressive moves (e.g. sanctuary cities, marijuana legalisation, Medicaid expansions) to be stopped in their tracks, given Trump's administration sets out to crack down on state's rights when he disagrees with the policy. I guess it's a legitimate position to hold, but it'd be nice if people at least acknowledged that they never really cared about those sorts of policies.

Short of federal legalization Trump's letting the states run pot policy - Biden aint gonna legalize it either. But Trump did push thru Congress the First Step Act which took a bite out of Biden's drug war. Thats right, Biden helped drive mass incarceration in this country and Trump took a step in a different direction. But caring people should vote for Biden?

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I'm assuming those who aren't going to vote for Biden are happy for all state-level progressive moves (e.g. sanctuary cities, marijuana legalisation, Medicaid expansions) to be stopped in their tracks, given Trump's administration sets out to crack down on state's rights when he disagrees with the policy. I guess it's a legitimate position to hold, but it'd be nice if people at least acknowledged that they never really cared about those sorts of policies.

Bruh, Biden wants to criminalize marijuana. He firmly stands against progressive values and vowed to veto universal healthcare even as we are heading into the coronavirus apocalypse. If his best argument is "I am not Trump" and your best argument is to shame people into voting for a turd sandwich, I just want to see Trump re-elected, so I can drink your crocodile tears and self-righteousness in November.

But of you want to go this route, I see no better way to respond than yes, I really never cared about these issues. It has absolutely nothing to do with Obama's disastrous legacy for the working class people like me and Biden's brazen corruption. How dare I question our supreme leaders???!! The problem must be me, a lowly insolent swine who is secretly evil and wants to see his life get even worse.

I held my nose and voted for Hillary in 2016, but today I am giving the Democratic party the middle finger, and they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Yep, we keep hearing this over and over but the ass whooping that Bernie received at the hands of Biden, courtesy of independents and first-time voters, undermines this premise completely. It made sense last cycle, a few years ago, a few months ago, a few weeks ago even... but it has been proven conclusively false... two Super Tuesdays in a row. Keep saying it all you want (obviously you will, ad nauseum), but its wrong, and it will be just as wrong the next time you say it... and the time after that... and the time after that... Soooo... you think Biden is going to lose, huh? Anything to add? Or is that pretty much it?

It's true that the youth didn't turn out in big numbers—they turned out in exactly same numbers as always. Sadly, Bernie's banking on young people's vote didn't work. However, most independents and first-time voters did vote for Sanders. Some voted for Biden, too, but here is an interesting factoid: a lot of first-time voters were canvassed by Sanders volunteers, and they were excited to vote for Bernie. But when the moderate fell in line and all endorsed Biden in one fell swoop, these people freaked out about electability, for the polls and changed their mind last minute to vote for Biden. Then they jumped back into their cars with "Bernie" bumper stickers and drove away. So it was a victory in that Sanders campaign brought them to the booth, but a loss in that the establishment and the media swayed the narrative to push Biden as the electable front runner. I don't blame these voters because I myself have at times come to the polls unprepared.

There is also something to say about many students waiting in line for 2, 3, 7 hours on college campuses. Republicans always take a lot of beating for voter suppression and gerrymandering, but what if the Democrats did it, too? After all, they turned out to be not the "nice guys" they claimed to be. Are they really better than the Republicans, when they are simply serving big money and the donor class?

One last thing to consider is that there have been multiple voting violations, and several organizations have filed to investigate for voter fraud in several states. The exit polls are ways off the margins of error, and you can check here for yourself how far they are for different states:
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/03/09/california-2020-democratic-party-primary/
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/03/08/vermont-2020-democratic-party-primary/
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/03/07/texas-2020-democratic-party-primary/
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/03/04/massachusetts-2020-democratic-party-primary/
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/03/02/south-carolina-2020-democratic-party-primary/
https://tdmsresearch.com/2020/02/17...primary-exit-poll-versus-reported-vote-count/

How is it that Bernie is consistently under the exit polls, while Biden is consistently ahead? Not even calling for a conspiracy, but can anyone explain? Are Biden supporters not willing to share maybe?

In any case, even if Bernie did not win today, he already won tomorrow. And this isn't about Bernie anyway–it's about the conversation he started. It's about the path forward and where we go as a country. It's not about Bernie, but about everyone in America.

 

[cardgame]

Old people vote early and mail-in more frequently and that would be unaccounted for in exit polling

But the fact that Biden is literally the only beneficiary of any/all of these discrepancies is very troubling

 

[caketastydelish]

@Sommerswerd say whatever you want about Bernie, but I highly doubt Biden has the capability of beating Trump in the general election. Bernie does better against Trump in hypothetical matchups for a reason. Check the polls.

 

[Ajidica]

The Deep State supported Bush's wars, even 10 Downing Street said the fix was in for invading Iraq.

Do you not remember how Cheney set up a separate intelligence channel to bypass the security services - who were not finding the intel the White House wanted - or how the UK Security Services were opposed to the war but pressured into it by Number 10; or do you choose not to remember to create your bargain basement conspiracy theory?

 

[Sommerswerd]

@Sommerswerd say whatever you want about Bernie

Please quote what I "said about Bernie" that prompted this statement. Again, I voted for Bernie, against my first choice, Warren, in her home state. I already went to bat for Bernie. He let me down. He lost, Bigly. All I'm "saying about Bernie" is the truth.

I highly doubt Biden has the capability of beating Trump in the general election.

That makes two of us. What's your point?

Bernie does better against Trump in hypothetical matchups for a reason.

Unless that reason is "Because voters prefer him in the primary"... the reason is irrelevant, cause he won't make it to a matchup with Trump unless he wins the primary first. What are you trying to convince me of?? Again... I already voted for Bernie dude, he lost in Massachusetts. I can't vote for him again, unless he wins the primary. You're preaching to the choir, when the service is already over.

Check the polls.

I did. Bernie lost, and he's currently losing to Biden by 20 points.

 

[Tristan_C]

Except this is wrong poll after poll after poll show popular support for progressive policies.

This support exists in the same way that support for balancing the budget exists. There are entire sections of the government that should be terminated because they have produced no measurable effect. Yet if you were to examine each individual line item, hear the rationale, and look at the roster of employees, it suddenly gets very hard to make cuts. Oh those Draconian Cuts™.

Likewise, kids evince progressive intentions without any regard for real-world circumstances and consequences. Yeah it would be great if everyone suddenly became a model citizen and worked for the common good. I totally agree. +1 for progressive policies.

Thats right, Biden helped drive mass incarceration in this country and Trump took a step in a different direction. But caring people should vote for Biden?

I think if they are having trouble recalling how they felt about the deep state in 2003, they can hardly be expected to remember the eighties.

The main lesson of political correctness is that language can be wielded to shape thought, and as far as this goes, I think Washington profits immensely from the fact that there are not really any neutral descriptive terms for what they do in there. "Deep state" is outright corny. "Administrative state" is long and redundant. "Military-industrial complex" is getting warmer but is not comprehensive. "Washington elites," the term most often used by the left during the Bush era, is almost a term of endearment now.

I guess for accurate and biting figurative language, the "swamp" is a good word. Now that I think on it, the #Resistance has tried to appropriate that term.

 

[caketastydelish]

Sorry, was unaware of that. But when I said “check the polls” I was referring to a hypothetical matchup against Trump in the general election, not the primaries itself.

Bernie is currently more to beat Trump than Biden based on what we know now.

That said, as you adequately put, it won’t matter if he doesn’t win the nomination.