2020 US Election (Part Two)

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Careful what you wish for.

Proportional drags things towards the center. Here neo libs win half the time if not slightly more.

A hard right or left party is essentially unelectable.

The GoP would have to moderate but then they would also pick up votes in places like New York and California.

Routing them in the EC and capturing a large state off the GoP (Ohio, Florida, Texas) should encourage them to support electoral reform.

By then the Dems won't need it so go figure.
 
I don't advocate for proportional representation because I think it'll cause the Left to win more. I advocate for proportional representation because I'm a radical democrat.

Besides, I don't really think anything that I want to see happen is going to be won out at the ballot box or in the halls of Congress anyway.
 
Just because you don't get to run roughshod over the nation because you have more people on your side doesn't mean you are being treated unfairly. That's what the popular vote crowd doesn't get. Or they do get it, but they just don't care because they aren't interested in fairness, only in creating a system that is politically advantageous to them.

LOL. Just because the President has been elected by more voters doesn't mean the minority is being "run roughshod" over.

Since you're getting snippy I'm going to point out that the Constitution was not the founding document. The Articles of Confederation was the founding document. So yeah, the Constitution doesn't reflect the original intent of the Founders. It was a compromise to keep the nation together.

The Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution because they were unworkable.

And I want to be clear that I don't think people shouldn't have any say at all in government. They should but they shouldn't be the primary voice, or even a large voice when it comes to running a nation. It should be more of a "we'll take your concerns into consideration" type deal. Basically you want to minimize the impact the stupid, ignorant and apathetic can have on the system.

It is astonishing that this is your attitude toward popular government yet we are expected to believe your lip service to what the founders of this country wanted is in any way genuine.

Bottom line is, you seem to want exactly what the Confederacy, which was defeated in the Civil War, represented: permanent minority rule, by better men than a rabble of commoners. And so you, like the Southerners who became the Confederates, shelter behind the "compromise" institutions of minority rule, the Senate, the electoral college, the Supreme Court, and you don't even have any coherent rationale to justify it since you've just outed yourself as believing the Founders' whole experiment - government of the people, by the people, and for the people - was a mistake.
 
The function of being roughshod run over is due to the relative power of the institution. There will always be an oppressed minority, and that's going to be due to the power of the government. Though obviously some electoral systems will be worse than others
 
So the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its report on the 2016 US election, and it shows the Russians were not involved in any way and never attempted to sway the election towards Donald Trump.

Oh, wait. My computer monitor's upside-down.

Reuters said:
The report found President Vladimir Putin personally directed the Russian efforts to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak information damaging to Clinton.


p.s. And to anyone who's going to say, "But this thread is about the 2020 election", I reply in advance, "Yes, it is."

p.p.s. Also, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is bipartisan, with 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats.
 
And then beyond that, the other, far more obvious observation is that the EC doesn't, in fact, ensure that the needs and concerns of rural voters are heard or catered to. The EC incentivizes candidates to focus on two locations:

1) Elector-rich states whose population is sufficiently balanced that the voting outcome isn't immediately obvious
2) Capital-rich metropoles, who can be pandered to for campaign contributions

This is not a failure of the concept of an electoral college, this is a failure of the compromise that was made to ensure the bigger states continued to buy into the idea of the US. This problem goes away entirely if it's one state one vote because each state, regardless of population, becomes equally important to the candidates.

So once again, it's the large population states' insistence on political dominance just by virtue of "we have more people than you" that causes the failure of an institution.

EDIT: And just to be clear, my one state one vote system isn't just for the president. I would change the legislature too so each state only had one representative at the federal level. Basically, population size would become entirely irrelevant in my dream world and California would have to fight just as hard as Wyoming to advance its interests.
 
I think the concept that the federal government exerts its influence over the state governments, and then the state governments exert their influence over the citizens is flawed. The federal government exerts direct authority over the individual citizens, in ways designated to be under its purview (sometimes of course, it tries to reach beyond the boundaries of its remit), skipping over the state governments entirely. By giving Wyoming an outsized voice in federal elections, you aren't empowering the state of Wyoming, you're empowering each person in Wyoming more than each person in California, simply because of where they've chosen to live. That's a tyranny of the minority, if it's a tyranny of any kind. From under John Rawls' "veil of ignorance", how is that a better system than simply having a national vote for national office?
 
That simply isn't the case as evidenced by the poor quality of politicians in any modern democracy and generally low voter turnout in nations that don't have compulsory voting. Switzerland being one of the worst with something like a 33% voter turnout. And those that do vote have absolutely insane criteria for how they decide who to vote for (i.e. "I'm voting for so-and-so because I feel like I could sit down and have a beer with them")

...

Basically you want to minimize the impact the stupid, ignorant and apathetic can have on the system.

You've got it all ass-backwards. People in successful democracies become politically and socially apathetic because they are content, comfortable and left in peace. Thus they put their minds toward other things like learning and not being stupid and most importantly ENJOYING being alive. In the rest of the world people are politically apathetic because they are disenfranchised.

People should care about whether their leader is a cool to person who they could enjoy socializing with. We're humans, not machines. What I'd give for a happy democratic America where that would be a key issue instead of forced disappearances, racial pogroms, and concentration camps.
 
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EDIT: And just to be clear, my one state one vote system isn't just for the president. I would change the legislature too so each state only had one representative at the federal level. Basically, population size would become entirely irrelevant in my dream world and California would have to fight just as hard as Wyoming to advance its interests.

Ah, the Holy Roman Empire of the American Nation. Should be fun to watch.
 
I think the concept that the federal government exerts its influence over the state governments, and then the state governments exert their influence over the citizens is flawed. The federal government exerts direct authority over the individual citizens, in ways designated to be under its purview (sometimes of course, it tries to reach beyond the boundaries of its remit), skipping over the state governments entirely. By giving Wyoming an outsized voice in federal elections, you aren't empowering the state of Wyoming, you're empowering each person in Wyoming more than each person in California, simply because of where they've chosen to live. That's a tyranny of the minority, if it's a tyranny of any kind. From under John Rawls' "veil of ignorance", how is that a better system than simply having a national vote for national office?

true
unless the federal government does not decide that much anymore on what happpens in the individual States.

For example max federal tax to what is needed for truly federal efforts. Starting with military, foreign affairs, basic laws, single market and some civil knowledge pooling.
 
That's what a lot of the pro-popular vote crowd and non-Americans forget about how this nation is supposed to work.
If it's ‘We the people’ then the people should get a say in how ‘this nation’ is supposed to work. Otherwise it's not a nation but a company with bylaws.
 
Ah, the Holy Roman Empire of the American Nation. Should be fun to watch.


Spoiler :
North Carolingia
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So the DNC cackling while twisting the boot on the neck of the left wing of its party continues apace. They announced today that Colin Powell will be making remarks at the convention.

(oh and also Elizabeth Warren spoke at the Native American Caucus Meeting today).
 
a) Frankly, I no longer think a harm reduction argument is tenable when Biden has signaled that if elected he will oversee a successful coup in Venezuela, he will be more antagonistic towards China and Russia, he won't change course in Israel, and, given his record, a war with Iran isn't off the table either. Trump is by no means a dove, but he's cowardly and feckless in a way that Biden isn't. Biden is, in my opinion, far worse in regards to global violence and advancing the international socialist project. And because, again, he's literally said he'll arrest me and people like me.
I was reminded of this post by this article:
The Trump administration is hungry for war with Iran
Seeing the likely scenario of a Biden victory, Iran hawks have doubled down on their failed approach in hopes of sparking a conflict before Trump potentially leaves office

Spoiler :
As the world battles a deadly pandemic and the global community calls for worldwide cooperation and ceasefires, Donald Trump’s hawkish policy on Iran has not changed. The international consensus on Iran has been centred around diplomacy and the survival of the nuclear deal, which was confirmed again in an unprecedented defeat of the US at the UN Security Council last week. Even America’s closest European allies, the UK, Germany, and France, refused to vote for the US resolution to extend an arms embargo on Iran.

Iran hawks see this time of global crisis as an opportune moment to go after a country of over 80m people, in a region already beleaguered by decades of conflict and US militarism.

Rising tensions between Washington and Tehran since Trump unilaterally exited the Iran nuclear deal in 2018, and the belligerent rhetoric of this administration – especially from the Department of State led by Mike Pompeo – recalls the build-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. However, the pithy slogan, “Don’t Iraq Iran”, is not an accurate analogy to the situation of Iran today. In fact, a potential conflict with Iran will not be like the war in Iraq, instead, the more plausible comparison is Syria.

Even the most determined hawks in Washington realise that the war with Iraq was a mistake and that the American people have no appetite for war. Yet, not only has the US under the Trump administration become increasingly isolated from the international community, on the issue of Iran it is acting against the will of the global consensus and America’s closest allies. Despite running on a platform against the Iraq war and US militarism in the Middle East, and claiming that he wants a deal with Iran, reports reveal that President Trump greenlit the CIA in 2018 to carry out covert operations against Iran, with the objective to destabilise or collapse the country, according to former officials.

The most outspoken Iran hawk in the current administration, Mike Pompeo, has been integral in Trump’s Iran policy. Two weeks after Pompeo swore in as Secretary of State, Trump announced the US withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal. Since then, none of the stated or supposed goals of the administration’s “maximum pressure” policy have come to pass. Instead, Iran took measured steps to reduce its compliance with the nuclear deal and we have seen a persistent increase in tensions, which almost led to war in January after the assassination of Iranian general Qasem Soleimani.

The upcoming appointment of another long-time Iran hawk to the post of Iran envoy, Elliott Abrams, who was involved in the Iran-Contra scandal under the Reagan administration, signals diminishing hopes for any diplomacy with Iran. Currently serving as Trump’s special representative for Venezuela, Abrams has been pushing for regime-change there and will most likely incorporate a similar policy in his new role.

As we near elections in November, the Trump administration has failed to deliver few foreign policy victories. Protests against racism and police brutality continue unabated, the US is first in the world in Covid-19 cases and deaths, and the economy is inching towards recession. Seeing the likely scenario of a Biden victory, Iran hawks have doubled down on their failed approach in hopes of sparking a conflict before Trump may leave office.

A series of recent explosions and fires in Iran reflect apparent efforts to destabilise the country, the fact that some were at crucial infrastructure sites rises the idea that Iran is being provoked into escalating the situation. Israel also appears to have a hand in the alleged acts of sabotage, something it has carried out many times in the past.

As 1,000 Americans are dying per day from Covid-19, this open and reckless antagonism against Iran appears to be growing in scale – for instance, a recent egregious move by a US fighter jet, which flew dangerously close to an Iranian civilian plane, or a sitting US senator openly calling for the “collapse of the regime”. While we hear talking points that are familiar for anyone who lived through the invasion of Iraq, there is little accountability for the fallout of such a “collapse”.

It seems an intentional misreading of the situation when proponents of an aggressive Iran policy claim a swift and easy collapse and transition of the Iranian government. Beyond the fact that most Iranians would oppose foreign interference into their own political future, Iranian authorities, especially those who wield power at the upper echelons of its complex political structure, will cling to power under any circumstance, much like the case of Bashar al-Assad in Syria.

In fact, a central reason for Assad’s ability to retain power, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of Syrian lives, millions of refugees, horrible atrocities and immeasurable destruction, was the support of Iranian and Russian forces. If Tehran could help keep Assad in power in Damascus despite the level of opposition against him, they will most likely resist attempts to collapse the Islamic Republic. Additionally, as tensions climb between the US and China – and Iran and China establish closer economic ties – there will be another layer of complication in any intervention in Iran.

If Iran becomes a theatre of war, it will draw global geopolitical actors to play out their own clashes in yet another Middle Eastern country. The case of Iran today is nothing like the case of Iraq in 2003. It is not truly analogous to Syria either, and would likely have a much greater adverse impact.

What we do know for certain is that no one can afford another fruitless and devastating war. Millions of innocent Iranians will bear the brunt of the havoc, but as we well know, there will be reverberations throughout the world. A Syrian-style civil war in Iran would devastate the entire region and even beyond the Middle East.

In the case of Iran, a peaceful solution is not only possible, it already exists in the framework of the nuclear deal. The The Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) is not only a deal on Iran’s nuclear programme, it is a door to more diplomacy between Tehran and the West and can pave the way for negotiations and potential agreements on many issues. Neither Iranians nor Americans want war. At a time when the global community is facing insurmountable challenges, it is crucial to move towards peace.

Assal Rad is a senior research fellow at the National Iranian American Council. Negar Mortazavi is a journalist

tl;dr yes, the more hawkish elements of the DNC, e.g.:
So the DNC cackling while twisting the boot on the neck of the left wing of its party continues apace. They announced today that Colin Powell will be making remarks at the convention.
Colin freaking Powell! might think of war on Iran as a matter of policy, the RNC simply sees it as yet another potential vote-winner (and the Russian controllers might stop that, or not).

On Iran particularly, Joe Biden was the VP when the deal with Iran which Trump later broke was made.
 
So the DNC cackling while twisting the boot on the neck of the left wing of its party continues apace. They announced today that Colin Powell will be making remarks at the convention.

(oh and also Elizabeth Warren spoke at the Native American Caucus Meeting today).

That election will be a choice between Donald Trump, or the republican candidate...
 
So the DNC cackling while twisting the boot on the neck of the left wing of its party continues apace. They announced today that Colin Powell will be making remarks at the convention.
The Colin Powell wing of the GOP will not vote for Biden. They'll vote 3rd party. But Colin Powell helps get the Center-Right to actually vote for Biden.

Do you think that Biden can beat Trump without the Center-Right?

[I just saw AOC nominate Sanders for President, btw. The left wing of the party might really force the party to turn leftwards this next cycle, like the Tea Party forced the GOP into their own new type of policies]
 
So the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released its report on the 2016 US election, and it shows the Russians were not involved in any way and never attempted to sway the election towards Donald Trump.

Oh, wait. My computer monitor's upside-down.

The report found President Vladimir Putin personally directed the Russian efforts to hack computer networks and accounts affiliated with the Democratic Party and leak information damaging to Clinton.

The "big revelation" is that a guy who was actually fired from Trump's campaign and had previously been a lobbyist for ukranian oligarchs knew a russian spy in Ukraine. In related news bears crap on the woods.
Will this committee now investigate how many russian spies Biden's son got to know and work with while taking his bribes from the ukranian oligarchs?

Oh and Stone, who was convicted for lying on his claims that he had been working with wikileaks, has been "found" by this committee to be "working with wikileaks". :rolleyes: Apparently the russians interfered because Trump believed that Stone had access to some information from wikileaks that he didn't have acess to... the cold war research into psychic powers must have paid off for the russians!

Pathetic.

Do you think that Biden can beat Trump without the Center-Right?

The "center-right" doesn't exist outside the Washington and its media echo box. Trump proved that by taking over that supposed center-right, leaving the big bosses of it utterly frustrated but powerless to stop him. Biden gains no relevant quantity of votes by having the open backing of those people. But he loses the left.
"Biden" will manage what should have been impossible: to lose to Trump even while Trump's executive is mismanaging the worst crisis of the century so far! Has there ever been a party there so bent on losing elections?

The US has a heterogeneous "right": religious conservative right, bitter broken working classes, libertarians, small businessman (going bankrupt), big businessman (getting even wealthier), etc. Which of these are the mythical "centre-right" that Biden is supposedly appealing to? The Professional-Managerial class? That right has taken over the democratic party long ago - Biden is preaching to the converted.
And even so some of those converted are uneasy because they can seem themselves "downwardly mobile" already. Biden promises nothing to alleviate that concern.
 
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Will this committee now investigate how many russian spies Biden's son got to know and work with while taking his bribes from the ukranian oligarchs?
Subterfuge or not I feel bad for the poor KGB man tasked with trying to get useful information from Hunter Biden. :lol:

Which NYC nightclub has the best toilet to do coke off of? Or how his dad’s hairy legs got rubbed when he was a lifeguard? I think the smart Russians would rather use Biden to get their own cushy do-nothing jobs than hand Pootie-Poot the codes to the Vice Presidential nonnuclear football.

Russian intelligence has sunk pretty low if Hunter Biden is something they consider an asset. Even the wacky Khaddafi knew he should at least route the PBR shipments to Billy when his brother was actually in office. :mischief:
 
always complaints about CHP , main Opposition here , having former lslamists or Right Wing economics types on its roster , giving them high profile stuff . lt will never get more than 25% of the vote on its own , 20% is about from Alevis , some from Radical Left , some from people who think Atatürk was right in his day and is still right today . Relevance to America is that New Turkey was failed by its American masters to get 50% thing , like because the dumber management of the Trump era could follow electoral sheninigans here without having to learn the system . The point being when something hurts the Right , say the economy or PM holding hands with a Kurdish feodal lord from lraq and talking about how there will be no more respect to "Nationalism" the voters would at most not vote . People on the other side , people they know ? They MlGHT vote for the Left , not in a flood , but ones or twos ... Which actually matters . American masses have to prove that they can beat the schemes and conspiracies . Oh , ours is a joke in the end , but you might not like living in an halfway working 1984 . Win , keep winning and then you can fight again the transplanted Right , there is always hope for the Youth ever providing new voters and what not . Or something .
 
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