2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Lexicus]

Again, no one seems to hold Bernie to account for voting for the bill.

He said at the time he was voting for it reluctantly, because the violence against women provisions were necessary, and predicted the bill would have bad consequences. Whereas Joe Biden said

Let me define the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is now for 60 new death penalties. That is what is in this bill. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party has 70 enhanced penalties.... The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 100,000 cops. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 125,000 new state prison cells.

So the comparison is somewhat spurious.

 

[Sommerswerd]

He said at the time he was voting for it reluctantly, because the violence against women provisions were necessary, and predicted the bill would have bad consequences. Whereas Joe Biden said

Let me define the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is now for 60 new death penalties. That is what is in this bill. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party has 70 enhanced penalties.... The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 100,000 cops. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 125,000 new state prison cells.

So the comparison is somewhat spurious.

The crime bill was passed over 25 years ago. Its just a distraction for the purposes of this election. I'm not worrying about what Biden or Bernie or whoever did 25 years ago. I'm focused on what Trump did 25 minutes ago.

 

[Lexicus]

The crime bill was passed over 25 years ago. Its just a distraction for the purposes of this election. I'm not worrying about what Biden or Bernie or whoever did 25 years ago. I'm focused on what Trump did 25 minutes ago.

While Biden and Bernie voted for the crime bill he took out a full page ad in the New York Times calling for the execution of five innocent teenagers so uh yea

 

[Sommerswerd]

While Biden and Bernie voted for the crime bill he took out a full page ad in the New York Times calling for the execution of five innocent teenagers so uh yea

But that's my point, the crime bill line of attack is just lame and stale, given the alternative. Its just like the sexual allegations against Biden... even the Hunter Biden stuff... Trump is worse in every category so I'm not taking the bait. He's botching coronavirus and the economy and police misconduct right now. Forget about 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago... Trump has delivered doomsday to our door today.

Its crazy because someone... I think maybe @El_Machinae or @Birdjaguar recently observed how quaint the days seemed when the doomsayers about Trump seemed to be overreacting. No way he could be as bad as all that... and here we are.

I want Trump out... its issue #1. Chirping to me about some crime bill from 25 years ago as your signature issue to persuade me against Biden is like trying to stop a freight train by shooting a pistol at it.

 

[Lexicus]

the crime bill line of attack is just lame and stale, given the alternative.

I'm not using it as a line of attack, and I didn't bring it up (we all know who brought it up), I was just defending Bernie.

 

[Kyriakos]

It is rather bizarre, though, that the Dnc's way to oppose Trump was to set him up against someone who is "just less terrible in all the things Trump is really terrible".

Once again, I hope this won't have a cost, but Trump imo would have won without the coronavirus, and hasn't lost yet.

 

[KaibaCorp]

@Sommerswerd
Trump has worse sexual allegations than Biden? He’s worse in some category he shares with H. Biden? In what way?

How did he mismanage the virus response? Economy was booming before the virus, and just this third quarter US GDP is almost fully recovered, growing 33.1%, fastest expansion ever since records began post-WWII.

What specific police misconduct are you speaking on, and what hand does Trump have in it?

 

[Kyriakos]

I also think it was hugely callous to not have some vaguely left-wing person run as VP.
There's only so many times you can say FU to a large part of the voting base, because they say FU back.

 

[Drakle]

He said at the time he was voting for it reluctantly, because the violence against women provisions were necessary, and predicted the bill would have bad consequences. Whereas Joe Biden said

Let me define the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is now for 60 new death penalties. That is what is in this bill. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party has 70 enhanced penalties.... The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 100,000 cops. The liberal wing of the Democratic Party is for 125,000 new state prison cells.

So the comparison is somewhat spurious.

And he boasted his support of it until the late 2000s on his campaign materials.

Right there. 'Tough on crime'. Sanders was fully in the rhetoric of the time as well, even if his stated politics were closer to modern views than Biden.

Bernie has better politics on a lot of issues. But his supporters keep portraying him as some magical politican who has only ever taken the right side of every issue, instead of moving with the times. Then attacking his opponent for similar movements, which the Trump people then picked up both times to exploit. The New Right era of Reaganism was a pretty dark time politically, and the politicals was so far right. And criminal justice was a radioactive issue considering how Dukais got burned by it.

The Sander criminal justice reform really wasn't that different from the Hillary Clinton criminal justice reform, which she actually released first in 2016. And Biden has throughly taken both, and added some more.

I also think it was hugely callous to not have some vaguely left-wing person run as VP.
There's only so many times you can say FU to a large part of the voting base, because they say FU back.

Harris has a voting record that is over 90% the same as Bernie and is one of the most liberal Senators. If that doesn't count as 'vaguely left wing person' than it is clear that isn't what actually interests you.

 

[Zkribbler]

@Sommerswerd Economy was booming before the virus, and just this third quarter US GDP is almost fully recovered, growing 33.1%, fastest expansion ever since records began post-WWII.

If I borrowed $1 trillion, I too could give the illusion of prosperity.

Has Trump ever explained how he plans to pay back the horrific national debt he has incurred? Private Citizen Trump's habit was to declare
bankruptcy and thus force his debt onto those stupid enough to have lent him money. Our national debt is guaranteed by us. Oh woe.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm not using it as a line of attack, and I didn't bring it up (we all know who brought it up), I was just defending Bernie.

Oh I know, I was just more using your comment as an opportunity to offer my comments on the same issue. I'm just saying that when I see folks debating over Biden and Bernie in re:crime bill, my reaction at this point is... don't either of you get baited into that. Its stale. Trump needs to go. That's the matter on the table.

5 days to go

 

[Birdjaguar]

@Sommerswerd
Trump has worse sexual allegations than Biden? He’s worse in some category he shares with H. Biden? In what way?

How did he mismanage the virus response? Economy was booming before the virus, and just this third quarter US GDP is almost fully recovered, growing 33.1%, fastest expansion ever since records began post-WWII.

What specific police misconduct are you speaking on, and what hand does Trump have in it?

Trump has used campaign funds to payoff hookers. Cheated on his pregnant wife; has 12 women who has gone public with accusations of sexual assault. In addition, Trump has said that he approves and indulges in grabbing women's genitals. He also has said that he would even date Ivanka if she weren't his daughter. IIRC there are even videos of him patting her on the ass.

And that 33% GDP growth rate is an annualized rate. The 3rd Q run up recoups much of the total loss for the year so far, but does not put us back even with 2017. In addition, that GDP growth hasn't restored the lost service sector jobs. Trump opened the economy to get that growth and 200,000 people died. Many more will suffer from long term issues of having had the virus. Is that a worthwhile trade off?

Trump misconduct? He is corrupt to the core and has been using the DOJ top prevent investigation into his corruption. His cabinet is corrupt. His campaign is corrupt. His family is corrupt. He has been using tax payer dollars support his private clubs by staying there frequently and charging the government maximum rates.

 

[Sommerswerd]

If I borrowed $1 trillion, I too could give the illusion of prosperity.

Has Trump ever explained how he plans to pay back the horrific national debt he has incurred? Private Citizen Trump's habit was to declare
bankruptcy and thus force his debt onto those stupid enough to have lent him money. Our national debt is guaranteed by us. Oh woe.

Someone posted a great article a while back that essentially stated that because of the debts and charges he is facing coupled with the irreparable damage that he's done to his greatest asset, his Brand/name, he literally cannot afford to lose the Presidency, so he will do anything to stay in office.

As an aside, all I can do is just shake my head at Republicans and Trump-defenders latest defense of, essentially... "its COVID's fault". They are apparently telling/convincing themselves, and each other Trump was doing so awesome until coronavirus came out of nowhere and ruined everything... so I guess we're supposed to pretend coronavirus never happened and judge him as if the pandemic wasn't going on?

Even putting aside the fact that Trump has been a terrible President, even before the pandemic... What would be the basis of giving him a pass on his mishandling of coronavirus? Fairness? As if he should only be judged based on how he handles himself and the country when things are going smoothly? That's ludicrous. All Presidents face crisis, foreseen and unforeseen. How a leader responds to crisis, hardship, tragedy, setback, is at the very core of how you distinguish good leaders from bad.

This pandemic is a stark example of why its so important to have competent people with scruples in charge. Even if you wanted to give Trump credit for a good economy... which he doesn't deserve BTW... that doesn't matter, because when a crisis hit, he shot himself in the dick. So he's a failure as a President. Saying "Oh but he was doing sooooo good until coronavirus!" is like saying that the Falcons were doing so good in the Superbowl until the 4th quarter... when they pooped their pants and ending up losing in a record setting historic meltdown/comeback by the other team. If you poop your pants and lose... you lost. It doesent mean a hill of beans that you were doing well before you crapped the bed.

"Its time to go"
"But I was up sooooo big in blackjack before I blew it all on roulette"
"So basically, what you're saying is... you lost, and you're broke"
"Yeah"
"OK then GTFO of the casino and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"

 

[Kyriakos]

Harris has a voting record that is over 90% the same as Bernie and is one of the most liberal Senators. If that doesn't count as 'vaguely left wing person' than it is clear that isn't what actually interests you.

IKR, much like how it doesn't interest you what leftist people want
Sometimes it would be good to realize the forum isn't the US, and your tribal polemics usually don't mean crap to an international audience.

 

[El_Machinae]

@Sommerswerd
Trump has worse sexual allegations than Biden?

By every reasonable metric, we have good reason to believe that he sexually assaulted Natasha Stoynoff while his wife was pregnant.

After she was assaulted, she immediately requested advice from her mentors and she immediately quit her assignment that put her in proximity to Trump.

This is one of the more slam-dunk cases. Because every celebrity will have sexual assault allegations, especially if they're a controversial figure, it's important to not count the total or to dismiss the most convincing allegations merely because of the number of silly ones ... there willl always be silly ones, and their presence doesn't detract from the credible ones.

 

[Takhisis]

Someone posted a great article a while back that essentially stated that because of the debts and charges he is facing coupled with the irreparable damage that he's done to his greatest asset, his Brand/name, he literally cannot afford to lose the Presidency, so he will do anything to stay in office.

I think it's an article I posted where they said his businesses, especially the hotels, had lost in the past year of coronavirus and shutdowns and travel restrictions something like 400 million dollars, he has about the same amount in loan repayments due, and is about to lose a tax case against US tax authorities for ~120 million dollars so it was roughly a whopping 1,000,000,000 dollars he would have to (re)pay during the four years of his hypothetical second term alone.

Edit 1: I found the post with the article quote included there. It actually mentions the possibility of prison (for fraud, I suppose, but I'll leave that to the lawyers)

Edit 2: to misquote, never give wriggle room to someone with no moral backbone

 

[Birdjaguar]

But wait! Trump says it's all lies.

 

[Lexicus]

If I borrowed $1 trillion, I too could give the illusion of prosperity.

Has Trump ever explained how he plans to pay back the horrific national debt he has incurred? Private Citizen Trump's habit was to declare
bankruptcy and thus force his debt onto those stupid enough to have lent him money. Our national debt is guaranteed by us. Oh woe.

The federal government has not borrowed any money and the national debt is by no means horrific. This is idiot arguing that will allow the Republicans to stop Biden from doing anything should he win the election.

 

[Takhisis]

OUCH! I've just read the latest xkcd. Mouseover text: this is ‘the 6th and hopefully final year of the 2016 election’.

 

[KaibaCorp]

If I borrowed $1 trillion, I too could give the illusion of prosperity.

Has Trump ever explained how he plans to pay back the horrific national debt he has incurred? Private Citizen Trump's habit was to declare
bankruptcy and thus force his debt onto those stupid enough to have lent him money. Our national debt is guaranteed by us. Oh woe.

Obama, Bush, Clinton all contributed more percentage-wise to the debt than Trump has by the way. As for “Illusion of prosperity”: by most of the basic surface-level measures, (GDP growth, Job Market, unemployment, stock market) Trump’s economy had done excellently pre-covid and has been rebounding quicker than the economy did post-2008 under Obama since.