affirmative action?

[Cu Chulainn]

treating skin colour differently is as silly as treating blonds differently from brunettes, from Black haired people.

I absolutely treat women with red or black hair differently from others. I dig black hair and red positively correlates with paleness, which I also rather like...

but on topic, just because it's silly doesn't mean we don't all do it to some degree or another. Everyone tends to give preference to people who are like them, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's how people are.

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

I absolutely treat women with red or black hair differently from others. I dig black hair and red positively correlates with paleness, which I also rather like...

but on topic, just because it's silly doesn't mean we don't all do it to some degree or another. Everyone tends to give preference to people who are like them, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's how people are.

I guess that's true, but I don't think less of people of different races.

 

[JollyRoger]

I think that if you give a race special treatment, people of other races might form bigoted ideas about that race.

I guess that's true, but I don't think less of people of different races.

So even with affirmative action in place for all your life, you have avoided bigotry? Doesn't this undercut your point above in the first quote?

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

So even with affirmative action in place for all your life, you have avoided bigotry? Doesn't this undercut your point above in the first quote?

some people will develop these ideas not all.

 

[JollyRoger]

some people will develop these ideas not all.

It sounds like you developed the idea, but claim not to embrace it. Nevertheless, are we to blame AA for bigotry or bigots for bigotry?

 

[NYHunter]

It's an irrelevant issue, it doesn't mean anything outside of the fuss people on both sides make about it. Thankfully, the debate on this has calmed down over the past 10 years.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Our system should assist the less fortunate regardless of color.

Allow me to show the bullcrap our system is created from.

My sister-in-law's family is quite wealthy, indeed; my Dad's contributing only 10K to the wedding but her family's giving 25K. And yet, despite all this spare money to throw for weddings...

....they get to use their minority status to assist their entry into college. I love her as a person, but I find it downright despicable as an act.

The system is terribly broken. Only people in need deserve help. We go after corporate welfare, why not policies that support the already-well off getting a free education?

Means-testing sounds like a far better idea to solve issues with race than AA could ever be.

 

[galdre]

humans are pack animals - we tend to identify with whatever group we see ourselves as being in, so I don't see us as ever getting rid of discrimination, and while AA is not perfect by any means I see it as a necessary evil - basically, I think corporate boards, govt bodies, etc should represent the population, not the male Anglo-Saxons only club that they largely are now

 

[Earthling]

Thankfully, the debate on this has calmed down over the past 10 years.

That's mostly because organizations just started eliminating affirmative action (a lot of states have in the past 10-15 years), rather than major societal issues really being solved. Also women have for all intents and purposes caught up to men in the US and people don't perceive a need for affirmative action there so much (overall, a good thing). We've not really accomplished as much regarding race or other things as anyone would want though, whether they propose more affirmative action or not.

 

[galdre]

That's mostly because organizations just started eliminating affirmative action (a lot of states have in the past 10-15 years), rather than major societal issues really being solved. Also women have for all intents and purposes caught up to men in the US and people don't perceive a need for affirmative action there so much (overall, a good thing). We've not really accomplished as much regarding race or other things as anyone would want though, whether they propose more affirmative action or not.

women have caught up with men in the US? There's definitely been a lot of progress but I think it's too early to say the job is done.

 

[Ajidica]

My AP gov teacher brought up something interesting with regards to AA. We were discussing racism, and true to from, someone brought up AA as reverse racism. I suggested that it should be shifted to a socio-economic view rather then race.
She then brought up the fact that even in similar socioeconomic groups African-Americans test worse and do worse educationaly then whites or asians. She said there were studies that back this up. I wasn't able to press her for details about the study without sounding confrontational and it wasn't the right situation to do that.

Now, that seems to contradict almost everything the sages of CFC are saying about AA and the reading I have done. So, are there any comprehensive peer-reviewed studies backing her assertion up?

 

[warpus]

AA is bad, but socioeconomic disparity is such that without it the numbers would be worse, as displayed by the University of California's ethnicity percentages after they got rid of AA in the mid-nineties.

For lack of a repair of socio-economic issues, AA is the next best thing we have.

What about an AA type system that used socio-economic status as a motivator, rather than race?

That would be a LOT better.

 

[Earthling]

galdre - yes, statistically, for young women (you'll never get women who are currently middle aged to be at the same point as men who are middle aged right now are, but that's not the point of AA). And culturally there are certainly isolated problems/people/incidents who may be discriminatory. But women have greater employment, go to college in greater numbers and attain better educational results, and make the same amount or more money in comparable fields as men.

 

[Gustave5436]

My AP gov teacher brought up something interesting with regards to AA. We were discussing racism, and true to from, someone brought up AA as reverse racism. I suggested that it should be shifted to a socio-economic view rather then race.
She then brought up the fact that even in similar socioeconomic groups African-Americans test worse and do worse educationaly then whites or asians. She said there were studies that back this up. I wasn't able to press her for details about the study without sounding confrontational and it wasn't the right situation to do that.

Now, that seems to contradict almost everything the sages of CFC are saying about AA and the reading I have done. So, are there any comprehensive peer-reviewed studies backing her assertion up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat

People from oppressed minorities know that they're expected to do poorly, feel increased pressure, and thus do worse than would be expected based on their intelligence.

 

[galdre]

galdre - yes, statistically, for young women (you'll never get women who are currently middle aged to be at the same point as men who are middle aged right now are, but that's not the point of AA). And culturally there are certainly isolated problems/people/incidents who may be discriminatory. But women have greater employment, go to college in greater numbers and attain better educational results, and make the same amount or more money in comparable fields as men.

yes, but where women and men largely make the same amount for the same jobs, women still make less than men overall - the top positions are still held by men.

Part of that is, as you pointed out, the age of the people involved - only time will tell if it changes, but I won't consider women caught up until the average men and women are making about the same and hold the same amount of wealth, and until they are equally representative in the halls of power (both corporate and govt)

 

[metatron]

Part of that is, as you pointed out, the age of the people involved - only time will tell if it changes, but I won't consider women caught up until the average men and women are making about the same and hold the same amount of wealth, and until they are equally representative in the halls of power (both corporate and govt)

Don't hold your breath.
That is not going to happen soon. Mostly because most women despite their claims to the contrary are not very interested in making it happen.
Attaining that goal would make (among other things) an equal sharing of the responsibilities of childcare and homemaking necessery.
Which most women unfortunatly don't want or at least not with all its consequences.

Btw: We have several threads where this is debated at great length. For that reason i will not adress any attempts on your part to "disprove" what i said or anything like that, in this thread.

 

[sophie]

What about an AA type system that used socio-economic status as a motivator, rather than race?

That would be a LOT better.

Indeed. I acceded to this point when it was brought up on the next page by Bill.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What about an AA type system that used socio-economic status as a motivator, rather than race?

That would be a LOT better.

I think you would find that the conservatives would still be opposed to it. They don't appear to care about disadvantaged whites any more than they care about disadvantaged blacks. They blame both for their own economic hardships and realize that neither group will likely vote for people who ridicule them.

 

[Narz]

Affirmative action is misguided if it is based on race, it should be based on class. The fact that a man who makes $500,000 a year & a man who makes $25,000 both have to pay $100 for the same traffic violation is ridiculous.

In general the rich always pay less for everything anyway. The poorer you are & the less your mobility & connections the more likely you are to get screwed out of the little you have.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Affirmative action is misguided if it is based on race, it should be based on class. The fact that a man who makes $500,000 a year & a man who makes $25,000 both have to pay $100 for the same traffic violation is ridiculous.

I'm going to need to see some rational for different punishments for the same crime before I can possibly understand how that makes sense. I've heard of progressive taxes, but not progressive fines for equal crimes. At this time, I very much disagree with that point.

But I agree with your first sentence