Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Alternatively,
And just skip straight to the point.
So it's just the designer being pedantic? Huh. I guess that explains why the East/West German border is given as a broken line too.
Altered Maps X: Ten Time's a Altered Map
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And just skip straight to the point.
If it's an Official Government Document it's probably best for it to reflect Official Government Policy, no?
I mean, it's not like the divisions between the various WP countries were any more meaningful.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
So the entire United States government was being pedantic, then.
And you call yourself a historian!I mean, it's not like the divisions between the various WP countries were any more meaningful.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Yes.
For some reason, there is a real lack of good maps showing how a WW3 might have looked like on the ground. Too bad there wasn't PowerPoint back then, then we'd have tons of them because every general would feel compelled to add at least one into his weekly briefing presentation...
Winner
Diverse in Unity
No idea. I sourced the article, where the author got them I don't know. They look scanned, probably from some government publication.
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Diverse in Unity
Czechoslovak border fortifications:
And the German invasion plan:
(I almost wish it had been put to action, it would have failed spectacularly)
And the German invasion plan:
(I almost wish it had been put to action, it would have failed spectacularly)
Winner
Diverse in Unity
No, unless they were suicidal. Poland was threatened by the USSR which was more or less allied with Czechoslovakia, and Hungary was being checked by the Little Entente (Yugoslavia and Romania, just waiting for Hungary to make a bad move).
It seems the German plan was just to attack against well prepared lines of fortifications, without any element of surprise on their side (the Czechoslovak army was fully mobilized days before the Munich conference), and at places where the Czechoslovak generals expected them to (and therefore where they also concentrated their reserves). It would have been a disaster for the Wehrmacht, even if it won a war of attrition months (or years) later.
Mathalamus
Emperor of Mathalia
would Czechoslovakia really last years? they wouldn't receive too much in the way of outside support, and would be overrun eventually.
actually i saw an ATL about WWII starting there... *looks for it*
actually i saw an ATL about WWII starting there... *looks for it*
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Diverse in Unity
Years is a stretch, but it's not impossible. Bear in mind that the Czechoslovak generals were not delusional morons - many of them were veterans not of the static warfare on the Western Front (as all the French generals were), but of the war in Russia and later Siberia, where the Czechoslovak "legions" (that's how the units were called) had to fight their way through from the Urals to Vladivostok. They knew well that holding Bohemia indefinitely was impossible, and they planned accordingly. As far as I know, the plan was for a flexible defence in the West - make the Wehrmacht bleed, but avoid encirclement by gradual withdrawal to the East, using fortified lines as anchor points.
The greatest "if" is whether the Soviets would do what they promised - to keep sending supplies, ammunition and weapons after the Czechoslovak stocks are depleted. That depends on either Poland or Romania allowing some Soviet transit through their territories, which I admit is not certain.
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As for what Czechoslovakia really did - the acceptance of the Munich treaty was an unconstitutional act of high treason by the president. He had no authority to unilaterally accept an agreement that ceded 1/3 of the country's territory to the enemy without the consent of the Parliament, but that's exactly what he did. It had nothing to do with military logic or a serious appraisal of the strategic situation. In any less civilized society, the military would have staged a coup and defended the country, but hey, this is Czechia we're talking about...
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Diverse in Unity
I'd call it a "plot", rather. It wasn't really credibly in any way, and its importance was hyped by the army generals who after the war wanted to show that the army had been opposed to Hitler from the start, which is of course ridiculous.
OTOH they were very sceptical about the chances of a quick and decisive victory over Czechoslovakia.
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Diverse in Unity
Why is it ridiculous?
Because the army was perfectly fine with Hitler in charge while he was restoring its prestige and flooding it with money and recruits. They only began to be dissatisfied when his meddling had caused numerous disasters on the front (and when he expanded his private alternate army, the Waffen-SS).
Your statement makes some sense; the strengthening of the army was certainly looked upon favorably. But the army isn't a monolithic group where everyone thinks the same; it is made up of thousands of officers all with slightly different opinions, jockeying for favor/promotion. Officers who disagreed with Hitler faced disfavor and demotion, while those who won Hitler's favor were promoted.
There was certainly dissatisfaction among many officers before the war as well as throughout. Commanders openly disobeyed hitler's orders on the battlefield as early as Fall Gelb, and I know there was a significant contingent that regarded the invasion of the USSR as doomed from the beginning, even if it almost was successful.
Some points I would like to make,
1, Benes was a genius for letting the Germans take the country, this way sparing it from total devastation. He knew the Germans couldn't win the war.
2, If Hungary had had the chance to grab some her lost territory back from Czechoslovakia, she would have done it without a second thought, but the winds of international politics were unfavourable, and Hungary was not yet dedicated to start a war. BTW after Czechoslovakia collapsed, Hungary had war with Slovakia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_War
3,The Prussian officers could not stand Hitler, they didn't see the Prussian honor, blood, gloire in him, because he was just a painter from the lower class of Austria(-Hungary). After the war broke out, and Germany had her first success(es) this view on him changed obviously.
1, Benes was a genius for letting the Germans take the country, this way sparing it from total devastation. He knew the Germans couldn't win the war.
2, If Hungary had had the chance to grab some her lost territory back from Czechoslovakia, she would have done it without a second thought, but the winds of international politics were unfavourable, and Hungary was not yet dedicated to start a war. BTW after Czechoslovakia collapsed, Hungary had war with Slovakia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak–Hungarian_War
3,The Prussian officers could not stand Hitler, they didn't see the Prussian honor, blood, gloire in him, because he was just a painter from the lower class of Austria(-Hungary). After the war broke out, and Germany had her first success(es) this view on him changed obviously.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
This thread isn't really the best place to have this discussion, btw.
What war? It wasn't even clear there would a war at that time. His sparing Czechoslovakia of "total devastation" also gave the Wehrmacht several divisions worth of Czech equipment, especially light tanks which it used with great effect, huge additional industrial capacity, Czech gold reserves that have kept the Nazi economy afloat for another year, all of which made it possible for Germany to win in the West in 1940. If there was a war in 1938/39, Germany would never have been able to expand as much as it did.
Beneš was a weak-willed, panicky, sometimes even spiteful man who sold his country out TWICE during his career - first time to the Nazis, later to the Communists. And We're still building him statues
More like a skirmish.
Hungary at that time was unwilling to risk a war against Romania and Yugoslavia. It would have waited until Czechoslovakia was on its last legs to try something, like vultures.
Their personal opinion of him didn't matter one bit - he was the leader who was giving them money, prestige, recruits, and pretty much all they asked for. The notion that the German army was an innocent bystander during the Nazi rise in Europe is nonsensical.
What war? It wasn't even clear there would a war at that time. His sparing Czechoslovakia of "total devastation" also gave the Wehrmacht several divisions worth of Czech equipment, especially light tanks which it used with great effect, huge additional industrial capacity, Czech gold reserves that have kept the Nazi economy afloat for another year, all of which made it possible for Germany to win in the West in 1940. If there was a war in 1938/39, Germany would never have been able to expand as much as it did.
Beneš was a weak-willed, panicky, sometimes even spiteful man who sold his country out TWICE during his career - first time to the Nazis, later to the Communists. And We're still building him statues
More like a skirmish.
Hungary at that time was unwilling to risk a war against Romania and Yugoslavia. It would have waited until Czechoslovakia was on its last legs to try something, like vultures.
Their personal opinion of him didn't matter one bit - he was the leader who was giving them money, prestige, recruits, and pretty much all they asked for. The notion that the German army was an innocent bystander during the Nazi rise in Europe is nonsensical.
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