Altered maps XI: Towards a New Decade!

[Arakhor]

I saw the intended image instantly, because that's what human brains are apparently wired to do, but it took me a little longer to notice that it was a map of Europe on its side.

 

[gangleri2001]

I posted the maps just to show it, but I think you all know where Catalonia and Valencia are.

But, Are there a reason for a pan-Catalanist independence?, I mean, if the independents are in Catalonia, why Valencia and Balearic Isles would declare independence too?

But what do you mean with having Catalonia wrtten in Spanish and the other two written in Catalan?

I'm not a pan-Catalanist independentist, so you should ask someone who is. I'm only pan-Catalanist if, after a Catalan independence, Valencia or the Baleares want to follow us.

 

[Dachs]

I saw the intended image instantly, because that's what human brains are apparently wired to do, but it took me a little longer to notice that it was a map of Europe on its side.

Need a new continent?

Why not Zoidberg?

 

[gangleri2001]

It took me a while to make this map but I've learned a lot about Ibn Battuta's amazing biography thanks to this map.

Here you got it, enjoy it:

Spoiler :

 

[hoplitejoe]

Nice! I have always wanted to learn more about Muslim history.

 

[MrTrt]

But what do you mean with having Catalonia wrtten in Spanish and the other two written in Catalan?

I'm not a pan-Catalanist independentist, so you should ask someone who is. I'm only pan-Catalanist if, after a Catalan independence, Valencia or the Baleares want to follow us.

Well, The original map were in Spanish, and I rewrote this because the sea ate the name of the communities, and I can't write bold letters in the paint, so I let it in Spanish, but yes, it'd be Catalunya.

If you're Catalan I have nothing to tell to you, 'cause I'm not.

 

[Winner]

Catalonia is Spain! When will you people get over it?

 

[Dachs]

Catalonia is Spain! When will you people get over it?

ITT: Winner abandons European integralism

 

[gangleri2001]

Well, The original map were in Spanish, and I rewrote this because the sea ate the name of the communities, and I can't write bold letters in the paint, so I let it in Spanish, but yes, it'd be Catalunya.

If you're Catalan I have nothing to tell to you, 'cause I'm not.

Ok, I just couldn't understand why different languages were used in it.

And yes, I'm Catalan and independentist. Let's just say that I'm CFC's "official" Catalan independentist. BTW, why don't you want to talk to me? Is it just because I'm Catalan? If so that says a lot about how divided we are. But maybe I'm wrong, so I'll wait for your answer.

Catalonia is Spain! When will you people get over it?

If this was true then the Scots and Welsh would be English, the Basques would be Spanish or French and Belgium would be a country with no inner division at all

ITT: Winner abandons European integralism

Winner is a (relatively ignorant of western European reality) pan-Europeist that can't and won't (and doesn't even want to) understand why historical nationalities of western Europe are increasingly secessionist. It looks like he thinks that western European empires weren't as brutal and oppressive as those that oppressed the eastern half of the continent and therefore he sees no reason to dismantle their imperial cores as it was done with those empires in the East. That's why he cannot accept this rise of western European secesionism and so he reacts hysterically everytime anyone mentions it (or thinks they're are mentioning even though they aren't, as in this case).





@all: Thanks for ignoring my map on Ibn Battuta's journeys that took me hours to make. BTW, do you know where I can upload larg images without these being automatically resized?

 

[Winner]

ITT: Winner abandons European integralism

If this was true then the Scots and Welsh would be English, the Basques would be Spanish or French and Belgium would be a country with no inner division at all

I am not saying that the Welsh are English, I am saying they are British. Conversely, I am not saying the Catalans and Basques are Castillians, but they are Spanish.

Winner is a (relatively ignorant of western European reality) pan-Europeist that can't and won't (and doesn't even want to) understand why historical nationalities of western Europe are increasingly secessionist.

If that means that I don't agree with your reasons, yes.

It looks like he thinks that western European empires weren't as brutal and oppressive as those that oppressed the eastern half of the continent and therefore he sees no reason to dismantle their imperial cores as it was done with those empires in the East.

I just don't see any reason to further fragment Europe into even greater number of irrelevant nation states. All legitimate national aspirations ethnic minorities have in any EU member state can be met within the framework of these states. And unlike you I am speaking as someone from a country which has had its experience with this kind of separatist folly.

Being a pig-headed separatist is so last century.

That's why he cannot accept this rise of western European secesionism and so he reacts hysterically everytime anyone mentions it (or thinks they're are mentioning even though they aren't, as in this case).

Nope, I just like to troll people who take western European secessionism seriously. The only country that I wouldn't mind breaking up is the UK, and that's because the English are anti-European.

@all: Thanks for ignoring my map on Ibn Battuta's journeys that took me hours to make. BTW, do you know where I can upload larg images without these being automatically resized?

I did look at it. Great job, but I can't really offer any other comment.

 

[gangleri2001]

I am not saying that the Welsh are English, I am saying they are British. Conversely, I am not saying the Catalans and Basques are Castillians, but they are Spanish.

Yes, we're administratively Spanish, but we aren't ethnicaly Spanish (aka. Castilians) and we would like to be able to decide if we want to keep it that way or not.

If that means that I don't agree with your reasons, yes.

No, that means that you speak from ignorance. I can't deepen in details everytime we talk about this topic because you ignore them and you always assume that we have anything in common with (and that we also care about what happened in) Czechoslovakia.

I just don't see any reason to further fragment Europe into even greater number of irrelevant nation states. All legitimate national aspirations ethnic minorities have in any EU member state can be met within the framework of these states.

You've no idea of recent Catalan or Basque history if you say so. And by recent I mean the last decade.

And unlike you I am speaking as someone from a country which has had its experience with this kind of separatist folly.

WTH? We don't have anything in common with Czechoslovakia. In fact, we don't even care about it. 20 years ago when all those independences happened we were more interessted in Lithuania or Estonia. Nobody in Catalan nationalist circles cared about Czechoslovakia when is disappeared.

Being a pig-headed separatist is so last century.

Being a pig-headed keeper of the current status quo even if it's against people's will is so undemocratic.

Nope, I just like to troll people who take western European secessionism seriously. The only country that I wouldn't mind breaking up is the UK, and that's because the English are anti-European.

So you basicaly think of the right of self-determination in terms of usefulness for the EU and not in terms of the people's freedom, will and power? That says a lot about your values.

I did look at it. Great job, but I can't really offer any other comment.

Dunno, maybe where can I upload this map without it getting automatically resized.

 

[Tee Kay]

Dunno, maybe where can I upload this map without it getting automatically resized.

Imageshack, though it tends to be crappy for long-term uploads.

If you can save the file as jpg and put it under 1MB then imgur or photobucket are far superior options.

Great map, btw. Sometimes I do find it hard to keep up with that Tangerine.

 

[Arakhor]

Yes, we're administratively Spanish, but we aren't ethnicaly Spanish (aka. Castilians) and we would like to be able to decide if we want to keep it that way or not.

Just because you believe that all Spaniards are Castillians does not make it so. In the UK, you start offending a lot of people by insisting that all Britons are either English people or those wanting to secede.

 

[Tee Kay]

To a Catalan nationalist, calling a Catalan a Spaniard is like calling a Scotsman an Englishman.

 

[gangleri2001]

Just because you believe that all Spaniards are Castillians does not make it so. In the UK, you start offending a lot of people by insisting that all Britons are either English people or those wanting to secede.

Castilians no loner identify themselves as Castilians, they identify themselves with Spain and so when we speak of the ethnic Spaniards we refer to them. Catalans and Basques don't identify themselves as Spaniards.

 

[Arakhor]

I think you might be generalising, but not having gone to Spain, I can't say. That's certainly not how it works on a universal basis in the UK.

 

[gangleri2001]

I think you might be generalising, but not having gone to Spain, I can't say. That's certainly not how it works on a universal basis in the UK.

This is how it works in here:

Identify themselves as Spaniards ----> Castialians, Asturians and Andalusians
Identify themselves as Non-Spaniards ----> Catalans, Basques and Galicians
Uncertain ----> Canarians

Identify themselves as Iberians ----> Castialians, Asturians, Andalusians, Catalans, Basques, Galicians and Portuguese
Identify themselves as Non-Iberians ---> Canarians and Balearics

As you can see, the geographic term is Iberia, not Spain.

 

[Arakhor]

We've gone wildly off-topic here, but Carlos I of Spain (Karl V of the HRE) declared himself King of all the Spains, given that Spain derives from Hispania, the Latin name for what is also known as the Iberian peninsula.

 

[gangleri2001]

We've gone wildly off-topic here, but Carlos I of Spain (Karl V of the HRE) declared himself King of all the Spains, given that Spain derives from Hispania, the Latin name for what is also known as the Iberian peninsula.

And the kings of the Crown of Aragon also declared themselves kings of Hispania, so? The Latin word Hispania (and its derivatives) was a stricly geographical synonym for the Iberian Peninsula until the 18th century, when the current nation state began to dissociate the geographical term (Iberian Peninsula) with the historical denomination (Hispania) so the term Spain ended up bein associated with modern state only.

That's why Carlos I declared himself king of the Spains, in plural, because that term was a synonym (and in poetic texts still is) for the many nations of the Iberian Peninsula. That's why people when read Catalan and Basque nationalist poets (and even some Protuguese poets too) talking about the "Spains" think that they are unionists.

 

[uat2d]

That's why people when read Catalan and Basque nationalist poets (and even some Protuguese poets too) talking about the "Spains" think that they are unionists.

It's Portugal, not Protugal. It's Portuguese, not Protuguese or Portugese. If you can't even name correctly the one kingdom, country or language that achieved it's independence from Spain and the Spanish over centuries of conflict and tension, well, I hope you enjoy being part of the Spanish realm and being treated as dangerous separatists by everyone else the moment you try to do more than just whining. You have absolutely no legitimacy to want independence when you don't even know your history.

Being a pig-headed separatist is so last century.

Nope, I just like to troll people who take western European secessionism seriously. The only country that I wouldn't mind breaking up is the UK, and that's because the English are anti-European.

This, the UK wants to stay out, let them, not like they're exactly helpful when all they do is whine and cry about the EU. Everyone else is trying to further integrate within Europe and these national separatism movements achieve nothing more than just conflicts (yes, because let's be honest, being ruled from Madrid affects you the same as being ruled from Barcelona such as being ruled from Brussels affects us the same as being ruled from Lisbon.)

Obrigado.