Altered maps XI: Towards a New Decade!

[MrTrt]

I think you might be generalising, but not having gone to Spain, I can't say. That's certainly not how it works on a universal basis in the UK.

Yes, he is generalising

This is how it works.

Identify themselves as Spaniards ----> Castialians, Galicians, Canarians, Aragoneses, Asturians, Murcians, Baleari, Ceuties, Melillenses and Andalusians. A lot of Catalans and Basques
Identify themselves as Non-Spaniards ----> some Catalans, and some Basques

Identify themselves as Iberians ----> Everyone else
Identify themselves as Non-Iberians ---> Canarians and Baleari*

*I'm not sure, because I haven't met anyone Canarian or Balear.

 

[Arakhor]

This, the UK wants to stay out, let them, not like they're exactly helpful when all they do is whine and cry about the EU. Everyone else is trying to further integrate within Europe and these national separatism movements achieve nothing more than just conflicts (yes, because let's be honest, being ruled from Madrid affects you the same as being ruled from Barcelona such as being ruled from Brussels affects us the same as being ruled from Lisbon.)

Some of us want to remain in Europe, but it's easy to pick up cheap points by referencing our Brussels overlords. With attitudes like that though, it's a wonder why these invariably English people don't realise how Scottish nationalism works.

 

[eduhum]

In Catalonia this recent past years in local villages and cities there have been many 'independence people-consultings' (dunno if said well). These were not official.
Local authorities are independence sick!!
They want everybody by propaganda to think as them!! Sending messages to the press of how the must communicate things (true), instructions on how and who to blame (normally Madrid people), making every channel or radio post refer to catalonia as the 'pais català' or catalan country, exploiting to worldwide success of Football Club Barcelona to use them as the 'bastion of pro-independent catalan sentiment 's blaming their enemies in HUMOR channels!!!!

In these consults the 99% of the people voted yes for independence. Only 25% of the total in these cities population voted. All the other ones don't wan't Catalonia to be independent and didn't molest themselves to vote. The authorities made people see them as a success, but they were a complete failing.

Do not believe lies!

 

[hoplitejoe]

Post maps now?

 

[gangleri2001]

Ok, people, if you want to discuss with me about these topics let's open another thread and we better stop derailing this thread.

BTW, here you got Ibn Battuta's map on a full scale. Enjoy it (thanks to VRWCAgent for uploading it in his premium photobucket account for me):

Spoiler :

 

[choxorn]

That's a pretty cool map. About the only thing that I'd suggest would be adding dates for each of those journeys, it would make the map slightly more understandable.

 

[gangleri2001]

That's a pretty cool map. About the only thing that I'd suggest would be adding dates for each of those journeys, it would make the map slightly more understandable.

I cannot upload it on full scale so I'll have to ask VRWCAgent if he wants to reupload it with the dates. BTW, here you got them:

First Hajj (1325 - 1326)
Journey across the Ilkhanate (1326 - 1327)
Second Hajj (1327)
Yemen and Eastern African coast (1330 - 1331)
Third Hajj (1331 - 1332)
Anatolia, Black Sea and Caspain Sea (1332 - 1334)
Escorting Princess Bayalun (1334)
Journey to India (1334 - 1335)
Embassy to China (1341 - 1345)
Umrah (1346 - 1349)
Return Home (1349 - 1350)
Iberian campaign (1350)
Visiting Morocco (1350 - 1351)
Trans-Saharan expedition (1351 - 1354)

 

[Dachs]

Winner is a (relatively ignorant of western European reality) pan-Europeist that can't and won't (and doesn't even want to) understand why historical nationalities of western Europe are increasingly secessionist. It looks like he thinks that western European empires weren't as brutal and oppressive as those that oppressed the eastern half of the continent and therefore he sees no reason to dismantle their imperial cores as it was done with those empires in the East. That's why he cannot accept this rise of western European secesionism and so he reacts hysterically everytime anyone mentions it (or thinks they're are mentioning even though they aren't, as in this case).

Uh, okay, whatever.

My point was just that Winner said that Catalonia was "Spain" instead of "Europe".

 

[Masada]

Just because you believe that all Spaniards are Castillians does not make it so. In the UK, you start offending a lot of people by insisting that all Britons are either English people or those wanting to secede.

Britain is a bad example. You didn't have Franco. Crofting just isn't that hot an issue now. Your regional differences are less pronounced. The Catalans and Basques use their national languages on a regular basis. And let's face it Scotland and Wales would be hard pressed to function without the core: London. In the case of the Catalans, Spain proper is holding them back. The other consideration is that the movement is popular and the Spanish Government has done its level best to obstruct a democratic solution to the secessionist claim. Even the British Government has moved to allow the Scots to make a decision on their inclusion in the UK. The Catalans with an independence movement that's stronger and longer lived as serious political force hasn't ever had that kind of consideration, which is poor behaviour at best.

 

[JohannaK]

May I ask which map did bring this polemic issue to the front line?

Because I'm Catalan and so I'm interested in this.

EDIT: BTW, I'm also independentist, and I really prefer not to argue more about these topics after reading the levels which this discussion has arrived to.

 

[gangleri2001]

May I ask which map did bring this polemic issue to the front line?

Because I'm Catalan and so I'm interested in this.

EDIT: BTW, I'm also independentist, and I really prefer not to argue more about these topics after reading the levels which this discussion has arrived to.

Ep! Com va això?

MrTrt posted a map with the names of Valencia and the Baleares written in Catalan and the name of Catalonia written in Spanish. I didn't understand why did he do so and I asked him. He later told me that the names were automaticaly erased while editing the map and that he had to rewrite them and he didn't realise that he had written them in different languages. At this point a Czech poster that thinks that knows something about Catalan and Basque nationalism known as Winner thought that we were discussing about Catalan nationalism and so he made his pro-Spanish stand and this is how it all began, thanks to an Czech guy.

I'd also want to talk about this in another thread if people want to have a discussion and stop derailing this thread.

BTW, here you got a map of all modern countries visited by Ibn Battuta:

 

[W|M]

You missed Sudan out, and I'm not entirely sure he visited Vietnam.

 

[gangleri2001]

You missed Sudan out, and I'm not entirely sure he visited Vietnam.

He mentions the vietnamese coast in his Rihla and he didn't visit Sudan (unless you count 'Aydhab as part of Sudan).

 

[W|M]

He did visit 'Aydhab, which is part of Sudan; Ergo, he visited Sudan.

 

[Winner]

My point was just that Winner said that Catalonia was "Spain" instead of "Europe".

How is that mutually exclusive?

 

[gangleri2001]

He did visit 'Aydhab, which is part of Sudan; Ergo, he visited Sudan.

'Aydhab was in what today is the Hala'ib triangle, so that'd be disputed.

 

[JohannaK]

Ep! Com va això?

MrTrt posted a map with the names of Valencia and the Baleares written in Catalan and the name of Catalonia written in Spanish. I didn't understand why did he do so and I asked him. He later told me that the names were automaticaly erased while editing the map and that he had to rewrite them and he didn't realise that he had written them in different languages. At this point a Czech poster that thinks that knows something about Catalan and Basque nationalism known as Winner thought that we were discussing about Catalan nationalism and so he made his pro-Spanish stand and this is how it all began, thanks to an Czech guy.

I'd also want to talk about this in another thread if people want to have a discussion and stop derailing this thread.

BTW, here you got a map of all modern countries visited by Ibn Battuta:

Prou bé.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

A little off-topic, but is there any sort of corroboration that Ibn-Battuta visited those countries, or is it like Marco Polo, where there's speculation as to whether he made it up?

 

[gangleri2001]

A little off-topic, but is there any sort of corroboration that Ibn-Battuta visited those countries, or is it like Marco Polo, where there's speculation as to whether he made it up?

And by that standard we must doubt of everything we know about ancient history, don't we?

But anyway, if he was allowed to use the Al-Hajji honorific that means that he at least performed an hajj, that's for sure.

 

[W|M]

Some of his expeditions (especially the detour to Central Russia) are highly doubted, due to the fact that he didn't note things down during his travels, had to rely from memory, and often copied information about places from other sources.