Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

[Kal'thzar]

Two options: either they strike back or they fall into infighting even earlier. The latter fits in more, doesn't it? This might actually lead to a more stable Mongol Empire in the long-term, with the Yuan Empire in indisputable hegemony while it lasts, and the Mongol tribes stretched less thin (so they might remain an actual presence in western Central Asia). Not that the western khans posed much of a threat to the Yuan militarily, but still.

I'm quite curious as to those Cumans. Did they actually conquer all of Russia?

Pretty much what I assumed. It will be funner having them infighting .

The Cumans conquored all of Urkraine, have been moving into Hungary (which seems to have collapsed a number of times). At one point the cumans had most of the lands in Northen Russia although they fell back for reasons unkown to me, perhaps related to their first war with Byzantium so the north of russia has a few native russian rulers a whole BUNCH of pagan tribes and scattered byzantium and Cuman Holdings. Recently the Cumans have been moving into Georgia as the Byzantines collapse.

EDIT: Just had another look, the Cumans are not so scattered and are much more concentrated the main Russian state to exist is Volvogod or some such prince. The Cumans actually have Kola of all places conquored!

The Baltic coastline is heavily Danish although the Danish Kingdom is no more most of it under the command of the Duke Jyland.

 

[das]

the north of russia has a few native russian rulers a whole BUNCH of pagan tribes and scattered byzantium and Cuman Holdings.

And those pagan tribes are presumably Finno-Ugoric. A most disturbing development.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Indeed they are. Its scary!

 

[das]

Volvogod

Don't say it's Volgograd. That would be even more scary, if amidst Cuman triumphs some Russian prince would've carved out a domain on the Volga.

Vologda is probably more like it, in any case.

 

[Kal'thzar]

ah sorry, yes its Vologda, amusingly enough its a Bishop.(or archbishop)

 

[Demetrias]

I would just like to say crusader Kings ticks me off in its Randomness. In my last game I played as the Duke of Bavaria and conquered the Kingdom of Syria and Jerusalem. While I was doing this germany rebelled and the dukes vassalized themselves to the King of Sicily. And England conquered all of France and then lost it to the city of Jerusalem. I had let it become its own state and then it asked to be my vassal. So I let it but it kept getting new kings who would unvassal and then revassal so I just conquered it. But by this time they had inherited two provinces in Europe one in France the other in Bohemia and they used these two provinces to take all of the English French posessions and make themselves kings of france. While this was happening the Seljuks remained strong while the Fatmids collapsed and where beaten by the Nubians who where orthodox christians and they conquered half of Egypt. Also the tiny Kingdom of Al-muratibs in Morocco conquered all the muslim states in Spain and half the Catholic. Too me it is really frustrating to know that they only way things hold together is under my direct control. I don't want to reconquesta spain I want to build a strong crusader kingdom in the ME. Also the Kingdom of Sicilly would declare war on me and I would have to spend all my money just trying to get a white peace treaty out of him. He was to spread out to conquer. That was really frustrating because I wanted to let my bad boy go down and then fight some more crusades and here I am in a war in Europe while my Kingdom is in the ME.

 

[Kal'thzar]

its part of the point of the game, large nations invariably collapse, apart from teh Byzantines who can be quite stable (thanks to the large Demense limit of the the Emperor).

 

[Nuka-sama]

no one answered my question

 

[das]

Which question is that?

 

[Symphony D.]

I thought it was a very cool alternate history, and I wanted to know if anyone would play that in a Nes

That one, presumably.

 

[das]

As many people have shown some degree of enthusiasm for the idea (that or a new 1860s NES), I'd assume the answer to be a positive one: somebody definitely would play.

 

[Demetrias]

Yes we would play your NES I just said I think it would be akin to a WWII Nes but I would still play.

 

[Demetrias]

Kal thazar if you get the exspansion pack which is what I was playing all the kingdoms fall apart except england and me. Even me if I play Byzantium. They took out the extreme province boost for Byz and just gave it double the standard kingship bonus. Which is still good but they also down sized the starting army so it is harder to hold together in 1066. But they did get rid of the annoying habit of Muslims conquering parts of europe in the Middle with out conquering the stuff in between and now if a ruler makes peace he makes peace for all his vassals. Though I will say the new randomness of who people agree to be vassals of is almost as annoying. The King of Sicily should vassalize major german princes and spainish dukes should become vassals of a Syrian King.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Call me Kal, most others do.

Anyway I agree with you the random blobs of Islam in Europe is irritating, even more so when its say Bohemia and everything around it is rabidly Catholic. And I had heard that the expansion tries to deal with this.

Still my typical game is something along the lines of Byzantium falling and turning turk, Fatamids falling as all the Christians attack it and Spain going Islamic too. Then weird stuff happens Usually centred around where I'm playing.

 

[Demetrias]

In most of my game before the expansion Hungary would be conquered by the Fatmids and I never ever had the Fatmids conquered by anyone other then me before. They were to powerful because the muslim powers used to get the same bonus as Byz.

 

[Luckymoose]

I hate when the Muslims overtake All of Europe.

 

[silver 2039]

Hm....an Islamic Europe...that would be an intreasting alt-hist.

Or what if Russia converted to Islam instead of Orthodox Christianity...that could be quite intreasting as well....

 

[das]

Hm....an Islamic Europe...that would be an intreasting alt-hist.

Are you familiar with "Years of Rice and Salt"? Frankly it sounds suspiciously like the world of your dreams at times, what with an Indian Napoleon equivalent and all.

Or what if Russia converted to Islam instead of Orthodox Christianity...that could be quite intreasting as well....

I rather doubt that this could've happened without some major geopolitical readjustments. Basically, you need the Byzantines overran by Muslims early on (unlikely, though doable), while the Khazars will probably have to remain both Judaistic and a major threat (that latter bit was the sole reason behind the Volga Bulgars converting to Islam). In that case the Rus-Khagan might as well convert.

Muslim Russia is such is quite a fascinating topic, though. I suspect that the early conversions would be slower than with Christianity, outside of the trade cities. I firmly expect the Sufis to establish quite a foothold in Russia in the later period, as part of the missionary efforts. The frigid north that became the home for many early monasteries in OTL is bound to draw in many of the more ascetic orders.

For a funny possibility, Islam might also spread to the Finnish tribes in that case, out of defiance to Swedish missionary efforts. Lithuania seems like very much a given, too.

 

[Luckymoose]

Holy war with HRE!

 

[das]

Not likely (they didn't really have any borders, you know ). But crusades in the Baltic may gain far greater urgency, as I suspect that the Emirate of Novgorod will be doing even more raiding and piracy than in OTL.

Having said that, a Muslim Novgorod will change a lot of things when the full-on conflict comes about; the Dnieper trade route will remain more valuable as long as Novgorod and Constantinople remain in one civilisation (albeit being cut off from Scandinavia will hurt; still, there's fur trade, which we oughtn't underestimate), but the Baltic ports will be much poorer for it. The Hanseatic League might not even form if this situation is preserved. This change in economic balance will favour the Low Countries and England, however; the North Sea ports will prosper.

Things will get really interesting with the response of the western countries here. If both Constantinople and Novgorod are lost early on, the Christendom will either:
a) reach some limited concord with the Muslims (Venice will do this easily), probably averting the Crusades but still putting their lucrative eastern trade routes in a very risky situation which may lead to either or both of the other two situations eventually;
b) attempt to reclaim the key trade cities in the course of crusades. A much more irritating and at the same time useful Novgorod might actually fall to a larger army that would be raised for this endeavour, in which case we might live to see a viable "Teutonic Empire" (Republic, as in the Polish Republic, would actually appear more likely here for a reformed and "statified" Order) in northwestern Russia, while the rest is Muslim. Not sure if any lasting successes against Constantinople are possible, here, but a Latin Empire/restored puppet Byzantine Empire;
c) start searching for alternate trade routes. Earlier Age of Exploration, what can I say? Also, inasmuch as Novgorod will hurt German trade interests, I expect their city-states to be much more proactive.

As already said, these possibilities will probably all happen at some point; the question is, which will be the most successful?

Some more notes:
- No schism!
- Mongols of the Golden Horde are likely to integrate Muslim Russia more closely, especially if Novgorod is lost. Not immediately, but in the long-term. I think that Turkic and Mongol influences on Russia will be even greater than in OTL; hell, we might even see a Russian Khan replace the Mongol ones in the end. The Rus Khanate will probably be less involved in European affairs (especially if a) Novgorod is lost and b) Lithuanians are kept from advancing too far in by the Mongols), and more in Middle Eastern ones - expect even more and even earlier interventions in post-Mongol Persia and Central Asia, possibly to the point of the Khanate stretching well into India.
- The German Age of Exploration and the Rus Khanate are not at all incompatible, ofcourse... As both possibilities intrigue me greatly, I might make a map after doing more research.