Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Marie Antoinette was a guy? Oh wait you said 17th. Not 18th.
Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
Marie Antoinette was a guy? Oh wait you said 17th. Not 18th.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I had the map; I was looking for the post, so's I could look at the discussion surrounding it. uber-Bulgaria is a Guess the PoD map posted at around the same time if memory serves; a link to either one would be helpful.
das
Regeneration In Process
What's in it for him? Why waste time on some useless, pasture-less backwater when you have many much more appealing targets?
The Byzantines and the Latins were already debunked well enough by Dachspmg, but let me offer one more pleasant alternative - an Aragonese/Spanish Vice-Royalty in Constantinople. Greece was, after all, the home of the first vice-royalty; and in this world I suspect the Age of Exploration would be very different, if it comes in its time at all. The Spanish might as well focus on dominating the Mediterranean (no, I suppose the Aragonese alone can't really pull that off in the long-term).
"a independent state, but governed by Spain."
So he didn't really give it up. Didn't even give it to a different branch of the Habsburgs (that, incidentally, is a neat alternative: unified, Catholic, independent Habsburg Netherlands. Especially if the other Habsburgs do poorly, leading to Amsterdam or some other city becoming the centre of both the Habsburg dynastic influence and the nascent far-reaching commercial influence of the Low Countries).
This can be done much more easily: just keep Carloman alive for longer. Charlemagne was all set to start a civil war when his brother went and died on him. It would've been beautiful, too, as Charlemagne had just antagonised the Lombards into siding with his brother, but still attempted to complicate the situation further by seeking an alliance with Bavarians and the Pope. The Frankish kingdom could've been drowned in blood for decades, but Carloman just had to go and die instead.
A bit difficult to do that properly in this time period.
He could.
We certainly can tell what he was not up to. What the hell could he possibly do in Anatolia after destroying the enemy field army, anyway? I suppose he could have imposed a puppet ruler or something, but that's all, and I doubt that it would've lasted.
das certainly does! It was very silly, but I have some fond memories of fighting the evil president Woodrow Wilson's Anglospherican minions in the middle of Central Asia.
I don't think so, not immediately. The Hungarians might be able to do something good on their own, but that's non-equivalential. Serbs and Bulgarians have already began to descend from their zenith. Vlachs are too far away; they couldn't hope to conquer any of the greater Slavic realms for a reasonable amount of time. Georgians never did recover their position as a regional power since the Mongol invasion.
Another Turk tribe could easily replace the Ottomans even if they are overthrown, though; I'm not sure if they would be able to rise quite as far as they did, but a regional Turkish power is bally much inevitable.
Mhm. I think the one way to preserve the Timurids is to reform them into what the Ottomans became historically. Basically, integrate the assorted local institutions and work with the various minorities (and a janissary-type army; I think it was Toynbee that wrote that this was the surest way for a nomad people to govern a civilised empire). I think it's doable, though it will probably be in deep decline by the 20th century and with less of an obvious national base to draw upon than the Ottomans had in OTL (except perhaps for Central Asia; but the natural centre for such an empire is Baghdad, it probably won't survive otherwise).
So did the Genghisids.
And hey, the Rurikoviches survived in the form of Prime Minister Winston Churchill, amongst others. Don't get me started on the Trojan bloodline, or King David for that matter.
conehead234 tried to make a NES based on that map (can't find it at the moment, sadly; but it is the one with Muslim Khazaria, right?). The NES died very young; a shame, as I wasted a lot of time making stats.
Didn't that/isn't that about to happen in 1632 and its Universe? The Cardinal-Infante was certainly thinking about it last time I checked in, reading The Baltic War.
That is a pretty neat idea, though, especially if the Habsburgs start colonizing with that Dutch navy. Grand Admiral Matthias, anyone?
All right, fine. Go and spoil my train of thought.das said:
Okay, so if we've got a ruined and territorially destitute Francia (reduced to perhaps Austrasia and Neustria, with Aquitaine either as autonomous as old Eudo had it or independent entirely, and most of the formerly tributary states ripped away, especially the Saxons) and Lombards in control of Burgundy and Provence, where will they go next? The Ostrogoths went after Pannonia, but in this time period the Avars still have something of a hold on it (though they could be vassalized as Charlemagne would later do in OTL), and it might be militarily annoying to conquer further than a vassalization. I suppose attacks on the Umayyads in Iberia could prove somewhat fruitful, and it seems like it's the Lombards' only direction to go in after the few remaining Roman territories in Italia are snarfled up (which oughtn't take long; the navy will be busy with the Caliphate for awhile, while the army is also going to be campaigning in Anatolia and Thrace). As was previously mentioned, the Romans might grow a brain and decide to ignore Italy, instead driving back the First Bulgarian Empire (Constantine V has the military power and savvy to do it after all, as does Leo III) or eliminating Muslim pirate bases (though those weren't as much of a problem until the ninth century IIRC). A push into Cilicia and Armenia is IMHO a bit unrealistic and besides, the eighth century border is generally defensible anyway. Divergences beyond that may be a bit contrived, though, unless we want to either give the Caliphate a huge victory (thus allowing it to concentrate its resources to be defeated elsewhere, for example by the still vigorous Tang), a gigantic defeat (which would similarly leave it open as frontiers are stripped to protect other regions), or a brick wall, forcing it to concentrate resources elsewhere. Perhaps the Abbasids could campaign further against the Tang, developing a real war in Central Asia, or launch attacks against the Rajput princelings. That might even allow Chalukya or the Rashtrakutas to significantly expand to the north, with the absence of competition there...but now I'm being silly.
Fair enough, especially given the lack of a significant Lombard navy.das said:
I wouldn't know, having only heard of said map (in the NES2 V thread). I guess I can look tho.das said:
das
Regeneration In Process
It's a bit too late for the Spanish to (realistically) reconquer the north, I'm afraid, and even then there would be troubles due to religion and such. No, you should start early.
Personally I find the idea of them dominating the North and Baltic seas financially much more appealing; they did have considerable financial influence in OTL, but eventually got overtaken, while here they would probably have a stronger and earlier military, and lack of a distracting conflict with Spain. With some luck they could dominate the region through alliances and dynastic marriages (maybe unite with Denmark-Norway? And, for further FK-ness, England after yet another dynastic crisis? The Dutch Armada certainly has higher chances of working than the Spanish one).
Probably divide Austrasia and Neustria as well; Carloman's descendants will govern the latter and Charlemagne's the former. Aquitaine will be independent.
Languedoc. Nearby islands. Dalmatia.
Back to France: when the Vikings come around, they might be less interested in the north until it recovers; Saxony, if it thrives in independence, and Aquitaine will be popular targets however. The rivers are certainly convenient.
Alternatively, the Normans might overrun northern Neustria and not get assimilated, assimilating the locals instead.
Well, that's the only map I had where Muslim Bulgars took upon themselves the part of the OTL Turks.
The idea in 1632 being that after the French, Spanish, and English smashed the Dutch fleet, the Cardinal-Infante rolls up the entire Netherlands sans Amsterdam, which is besieged but not taken, and then both sides agree to a power-sharing arrangement because they're scared of Richelieu's France. It's not even close to realistic without the Ring of Fire that we don't really have in OTL, of course. Sorry, thought that that didn't need explanation.
Why does that blamed country keep getting tossed around in alternate history discussions? I swear, Stormy is haunting this thread! (Actually, as of this writing he is haunting Google Talk.das said:
) But yeah, given the date that does seem a good deal more likely. I dimly remember the Dutch influence in the Baltic being part of an AP Euro DBQ a few years ago about Dutch commerce during the 17th century. If Sweden is subordinated or partitioned (reviving the Union of Kalmar, too?) by the FK/Habsburg Dutch, then they've got a bit of an extra jump on industrialization too, plus lots of timber for an even huger navy. Dayum.Oh yeah, I forgot that he was still around, despite you very clearly mentioning it. Scatterbrain...das said:
I'm not sure if Dalmatia is that viable a target given the reviving state of the Roman navy in the centuries after the introduction of Greek fire, especially with the victorious war with the Caliphate relatively recent. An extemporized Lombard navy might not be enough to pry them out of the Illyrian coast.das said:
Are there any inconvenient rivers in northern Europe for Viking invasion?das said:
Do the Normans have the kind of numbers to do that in northern France? It didn't work so much in England and Normandy from what I know, but then again I didn't pay much attention to that gigantic war/discussion in the AFSNES thread.das said:
silver 2039
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
- Messages
- 16,208
Now thats a unique althist.
das
Regeneration In Process
Heh, I even forgot how huge I made Bulgaria. I don't think anyone ever had a Bulgaria that big before.
A spectre is haunting the NES forum - the spectre of Federal Monarchism.
Habsburg Dutch Sweden is a bit too much, though. Still, they can always carve off some nice bits in the west and the south, not to mention keep what the Danes lost in OTL.
I still think the relations with England are more interesting. I want a Dutch Habsburg on the English throne, possibly splitting off later.
The Roman navy isn't omnipresent, and the Adriatic is a tertiary theatre at the time, I should think. Incidentally: the Lombards, being more diplomatically-inclined and less antagonised by the Avars due to geography (less contact=less antagonism), might easily vassalise the Avars without crippling them after some battle. The Avars could protect the northern frontiers for the Lombards... and provide cavalry troops for campaigns in Dalmatia. Basically, a Cossack-like arrangement seems likely. The geographic relations seem more or less analogous.
das
Regeneration In Process
I did remember you mentioning the Avars; let's pretend I just expanded on that.
Whatever.
By the way, World History has begun to get into some alternate history as late; I realize arguing with people from OT who generally haven't the intelligence God gave a rock isn't particularly palatable to most people, but there have been some quasi-interesting ideas thrown around there.
By the way, World History has begun to get into some alternate history as late; I realize arguing with people from OT who generally haven't the intelligence God gave a rock isn't particularly palatable to most people, but there have been some quasi-interesting ideas thrown around there.
das
Regeneration In Process
The main problem is that there's a lot of them. Explaining things to one CharlesLi is difficult enough.
Ofcourse, that comparison is somewhat unfair to OTers (I guess? ), but it still seems to be a very frustrating experience (I don't really remember, it was a while since I've been to that part of our forums). Still, it's probably a welcome tendency. Might drop by there later on.
Ofcourse, that comparison is somewhat unfair to OTers (I guess?
), but it still seems to be a very frustrating experience (I don't really remember, it was a while since I've been to that part of our forums). Still, it's probably a welcome tendency. Might drop by there later on.
Flavius Aetius
Ruler Of Liguria
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2007
- Messages
- 774
Addes "survival zone" and first few colonization efforts in europe by muslims...and changed thread XD I think it's better here.
Swissempire
Poet Jester
You ain't kidding about the frustrating bit. People there just like to argue for the hell of it.The main problem is that there's a lot of them. Explaining things to one CharlesLi is difficult enough.
Ofcourse, that comparison is somewhat unfair to OTers (I guess?
das (and perhaps Panda as well) made stats; it was made into a game modded by, IIRC, conehead234. Dis collected economic information in a table as he and Symphony D. are wont to do.That map is amazing.
Nations?
EDIT: Also, this may not be apparent, but the Britain is a good deal Celtic I believe, those are the Khazars in charge of Africa (they're Muslim), and that monstrosity in the center is Muslim Bulgaria. It's...unique.
EDIT PART II: Oh, by the way, I guess I'll repost the brainstorming from "World History" so you don't have to deal with Those People.
Basically, someone made a thread with the idea that Princip doesn't manage to nab Franz Ferdinand, so there is no First World War and the two power blocs go into a cold war. While this is highly unlikely, it is eminently possible and I'm sure that if we search the multiverse we'll find this one somewhere out there.
Anyway, I decided to flesh out this idea in a more in depth fashion. A key event is Franz Ferdinand coming to the throne of Austria-Hungary in 1915-6 upon the death of old Franz Josef. Since Ferdy's a tripartist, he'll kick-start the "Slavania" Triple Monarchy program. The Magyars may revolt, but it'll be put down by either the Habsburgs or the Germans (which might lead to a general European war; if Russia is absorbed by social unrest, though, they might have to look away, while France won't attack if Russia doesn't). This way, we nullify much of the Serbian potential for forcing South Slav uprisings in the Habsburg realm and take away a goodly portion of their capacity to make trouble. Dimitrijevic may be ousted, with the attendant rapprochement with Austria-Hungary-Slavania and the ensuing return of Balkan stability (or at least a semblance thereof).If the world doesn't go into a general conflagration, then France will probably come to deal with the loss of Alsace-Lorraine (shouldn't have been there in the first place
) and try for an understanding with Germany. Berlin, in the meantime, is constructing their Zollverein Mitteleuropa and extending economic dominance over much of Europe in a proto-European Union. Russia, on the other hand, may continue to see social strife as industrialization is constantly mismanaged and there is no way to rally the people around a war flag if there is no war. Nicky may lose his cool and call for assistance; who better to ask than Cousin Willy right next door, who's got a nice big army and the capacity to use it? This part very much resembles the end of the Eurasian War, as Germany detaches Russia from the Entente by smashing rebellions and thus setting up a system in which the Tsar is held up only by the Heer's bayonets. Russia will be open to economic infiltration by Germany as well this way, although they will probably begin to assert their independence after ten or so years, if that.Meanwhile, we have fun in China, where Germany/Russia, Japan, and the Entente scramble to prop up their respective warlords and maneuver for spheres of influence. European dominance in Africa is left unchecked by war, although certainly brushfire conflicts will occur. The Ottoman Empire, similarly to China, may also devolve into economic spheres of influence, with the German one centered around the Berlin-Baghdad Railroad, the French getting Syria, the Italians getting a chunk of Anatolia (perhaps in concert with the Greeks; that's wide open and could go either way though) and the British getting the rest plus Basra. Meanwhile, the Americas develop into a third bloc to complement the somewhat informal Entente and the German-dominated Central Powers/Dreikaiserbund/Grossbund/Zollverein Mitteleuropa, with a significant espionage and economic battleground between the Powers in South America and perhaps the Caribbean too (although that might be too much under the American and Entente thumb). America will cooperate with the Entente to a major degree because of trade ties, but they won't go all out due to lingering distrust and the lack of a major war.
Yes, I know it looks very familiar, but what do you guys think would happen if we Absolutely Had To Avoid General War?
Demetrias
Emperor
An American Union and a European Union with Britain left somewhere in between? No Commies. Japanese Empire in Asia. No United Nations so their will eventually be some pretty major wars.
Symphony D.
Deity
A certainty is whenever war does breakout it'll be vastly worse than WWI owing to continued technology advance and nearly zero tactical advances to go with it.
