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Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

Discussion in 'Never Ending Stories' started by Dachs, Jun 5, 2007.

  1. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Fine, fine, the French are neither as dumb as they look and they are also not pushovers. Sue me for wishful thinking. :p

    On a much different, and, I think, far more interesting note - remember that "NES2 VII" Guess-the-PoD map das made awhile ago? I've been wondering what the exact PoD for that was (I remember narrowing it down to ninth century Ukraine, specifically something to do with one Pereyaslav, but after that I guess we lost interest), and would also like a good deal of explanation on a few points, viz. the Fifty Years War (collapse of the British Empire FTW?), the "significant butterfly effect" that forced the French to move their capital, the reason for Crusader States in the Indian Ocean, how exactly Balkan politics worked for a millennium, and if he's going to write up a summary after the exams/after AFSNES' IT is over.
     
  2. Swissempire

    Swissempire Poet Jester

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    I remember that one.

    And i'm re-excited about it now too:D
     
  3. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Ukraine - yes.

    Pereyaslav - ???

    Even I can't remember all the intricate details right now, though I probably have them written down somewhere. Anyway, the gist was that, after a period of relative modernisation (through forceful, rushed means) and military build-up, the French theocracy went all-out against Flanders and Britain, both of which were weakened and distracted by their own wars (in which the HRE supported Flanders). Having built up an impressive fleet, the French actually managed to achieve naval supremacy, while their massive armies succeeded in overrunning most of Flanders and Britain, while bleeding the Imperials white in border wars. Ultimately their gains proved untenable, but for the duration of the war the French had made sure to make as big a mess of the occupied territories as possible, inciting ethnic and religious strife, granting independence to puppet governments in separatist regions, destroying infrastructure, relocating manufactures and so forth. Ultimately the French retreated, but due to the sheer exhaustion of their enemies - who oftentimes also had other problems arising elsewhere - managed to avoid being defeated conclusively and even annexed the small Spanish state of Leon.

    Now that I definitely don't remember, but really, it could've been anything; France was, though this is hard to believe, even more belligerent than in OTL, and during or after any foreign invasion or civil war the capital might've moved to what was judged a more secure location. Then again, the theocracy's power-struggles with the traditional nobility and the bourgoise of Paris might've motivated them instead; that's probably more likely, especially given the influence of the Archbishops of Tours, a title often combined with that of Cardinal of France (i.e. effective leader of the French Catholic Church).

    After the conquest of Egypt, Venetians used Crusaders to secure valuable positions in India. They didn't hold on to all of them, but the Knights of Ceylon survived even the collapse of the Venetian colonial empire in the late 17th century.

    For most of the time it all rotated around Hungary, at least after the Early Middle Ages during which the Polanians were obviously of greater importance thanks to their conquest of Constantinople (and other places). When Hungary was strong, it more or less conquered the greater part of the Balkans (sometimes it contented itself with overwhelming political influence on local petty rulers, sometimes it really went, conquered and annexed what it could); when it was weak, it fell back, and Serbs or Bulgarians or occasional Greeks or Macedonians achieved limited local hegemony, though mostly it was just constant petty warfare and state-building.

    In the 17th century, things changed; the Imperials began to take interest in the Balkans after establishing a friendly dynasty in Hungary, and more importantly, the Egyptians conquered most of the land south of Danube under their great King-and-Emperor Alexander I in a prelude to the Alexandrine War in Italy. After Alexander's eventual death, the Egyptian hold on the gains in Europe evaporated quickly enough, but even though the Hungarians reclaimed northern Balkans the Egyptians held on to Greece for long enough. Still, in the end, a loose Hungarian hegemony was imposed and was maintained with varying success for much of the 18th century.

    In the 19th century, with the rise of nationalism and a renewed antagonism between Hungary and the HRE, that came crashing down amidst rebellions thanks largely to the Imperials. After losing most of the Balkans to rebels and being thwarted in their efforts to reassert control peacefully by a forceful Serbian monarch, the Hungarians made one last bid for power - the Third Balkan War. Despite some initial successes it turned out to be a catastrophe unparalleled after the Imperials entered the war on the Serbian side and utterly crushed Hungary, while the Serbs still managed to successfully play the "common enemy" card, amongst other things, to peacefully integrate most of the Bulgarian Principalities. Deciding that friendly and unified Balkans were definitely a good thing now that Chernigov was awakening and Hungary was revanchist, the Imperials helped the Serbs re-unite the Balkans, even turning the blind eye to their claiming of the Romanoi imperial title. Although somewhat tenuous for obvious reasons, the Serbo-Roman state has thus far been quite successful in most regards.

    Really not sure.
     
  4. Symphony D.

    Symphony D. Deity

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    I just noticed that the remnants of Britain (I don't recall the name) bear a disturbing similarity to a proto-Oceania... ;)
     
  5. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Arcadia has always been at war with the Holy Roman Empire!

    I do like that map, though I think the europeans have done better than is likely - the comparitive failure of europe to dominate the east being a natural consequence of not conquering the Incans.
     
  6. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Well, they did get to the East earlier than in OTL, though that's not necessarily to their net advantage.
     
  7. silver 2039

    silver 2039 Deity

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    Are you going to mod this?
     
  8. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Hmm - I guess I was mistaken. I got that from the name of the Serbian empire that existed before the Roman version, and dimly remembered some sort of post to that effect, but I can't find it anymore.

    Anyway, since my sources on that time period are extremely sparse, and since it has been more than half a year since the thing was posted, I'm just going to throw a random guess out there involving Khazars forcing the Rus out of Kiev or something extremely similar, watch as you say "no", and then politely and humbly ask for what the actual PoD was. ;)
    So is a secular leader officially in charge a la Ahmadinejad, but in such a position so that he can't do anything with consulting the Avignon/French Church fathers? Or has the Cardinal of France taken complete control by now?

    Also, what is that Flanders/Dutch/Frisian state up there - any similarity at all to the OTL Dutch Republic (although if that were true it'd be for a vastly different reason, one would think)?

    Why did the Teutonic Order survive and apparently get reintegrated as part of the Leiningens' Holy Roman Empire - more to the point, who was that guy who beat up Alexander and forced him to withdraw to southern Italy, thereby apparently establishing some measure of central power in the HRE? Did France get involved in that war on Egypt's side, and do they have a relationship at all like the one that France and the Ottoman Turks used to maintain?
     
  9. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    And then I'm going to say, "try again", although it does have to do with the city of Kiev. ;)

    a) More like the latter;
    b) Well, there's a king, but he's as puppety as they get.

    Both assertions are quite right. Well, technically, the main reason for it being this way has always been the same - lots of wealthy city-states in a relatively tight region. It's actually more decentralised than in OTL, though that has been changing as of late.

    The Teutonic Order never existed. The Baltic region was nonetheless conquered by lesser orders, then partly lost to Slovenian (not those Slovenians) states/Tver', then integrated into the ascendant HRE after several wars in the Baltic Sea and Poland. The Tverians had reclaimed some of the territory lost since then, though.

    Holy Roman Emperor Karl V, von Leiningen (or so I seem to recall). By this time the Leiningens had just finished consolidating power in the HRE to some reasonable extent with their latest Imperial Reform, so they were just beginning to really throw their weight around on the international arena. (Re-)conquered Poland, couped Hungary, fought with France, that sort of thing. So when the Egyptians went and expelled the Pope, Karl decided that this was also a good opportunity to reassert the hugely nominal Imperial authority over Italy and gain control over the Pope after a quick and victorious war; sadly, Alexander wasn't the paper tiger Karl expected him to be...

    The latter, and with roles somewhat reversed. Though Alexander was more like Napoleon with some Peter the Great and Friedrich II (the Hohenstaufen, not the Hohenzollern) mixed in than Louis XIV.
     
  10. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    You're going to make me spend money to get a book on this sort of thing just so I can guess the PoD or I'll go mad? (I guess someone else would probably have figured it out by then but since this has taken seven months already...)
    In the event that this is made into a NES along the lines that have been indicated by many persons in WWW3, who would the player control, the King or the Cardinal?
    ...and you gave them lots of Portugal's old colonies plus the former Belgian Congo, just for jollies? ;) When did this republic form - was it made out of Flanders in the aftermath of the Fifty Years' War, or did it arise in some other pleasantly destructive manner?
    Which Slovenians, then? :p And how did these Baltic Wars shape up - were they along the lines of a constant struggle between Denmark and the Empire, with varying coalitions on both sides, or was there something else entirely driving the conflict?

    Those borders did look sort of Teutonic...:( too bad they never existed.

    I'm also sort of interested in what the devil happened to Italy and Sicily - who took over Sicily in the absence of the Hautevilles, and did Italy unify through that 1840s war that you mentioned between France and the HRE, or was it in the aftermath of the Egyptian collapse, or through sheer nationalistic revival with minor support from someone like Egypt, Sicily, France, or Hungary, or a combination of the above, or something entirely different upon which you will spend a good long time elucidating? :p
     
  11. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    So why does no one use Symphony's awesome WT map for alt-history guessing?

    Spoiler so lucky need not cower :

    Butterfly's galore! ;)

     
  12. Luckymoose

    Luckymoose The World is Mine

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    Because it scares the hell out me.
     
  13. erez87

    erez87 Lord of Random

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    Mostly because it's not in the Map thread anymore... Got the clean one to attach?
     
  14. Thlayli

    Thlayli Le Pétit Prince

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    I seem to recall a Viking sack of Paris in the 10th century as the butterfly effect cause of the capital relocation.
     
  15. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    Symphonies has some rather wierd points of departure.
     
  16. ThomAnder

    ThomAnder Deity

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    What the hell? Antarctica is colonized?
     
  17. Disenfrancised

    Disenfrancised Beep Beep

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    Antarctica has a population in the millions!

    (Of course I'm talking about french antarctica, which is the colony around the Rio de la Plata) ;).


    The antarctic penisula is colonised in much the same way argentina has colonised it in the OTL. Besides with an actual decent antarctica, I just had to put some stuff on it ;).
     
  18. das

    das Regeneration In Process

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    Is that the Mughal Empire I see?

    What year is it supposed to be, BTW?
     
  19. Demetrias

    Demetrias Emperor

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    Your the Brits?

    How come you let Sweden have Australia?
     
  20. Flavius Aetius

    Flavius Aetius Ruler Of Liguria

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    Too bad, I don't see the map...can anyone repost it?
     

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