Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel

And why the French that abominable pink? >_<

More serious questions: How on Earth could a Spanish Empire with minimal power projection in the Pacific have gotten the entirety of the Spice Isles and held onto them? And how do the British have not only the ORV but Detroit as well when they lack New England and thus, the Dutch or French have much better communications to those places?

EDIT: Might also want to fix the half-black Songhai.

EDIT2: Or, for that matter, completely redo West Africa, because right now it looks like 1400 rather than 1800.

EDIT3: Echoing what silver said, Portuguese only on the East coast of India?
 
Something tells me this isn't the final version. ;)
 
Disagreement: the Ottomans were not necessarily doomed by 1800. However, they probably could not have held onto Circassia if they had lost Crimea, so that part of the map is suspect as well.
 
Disagreement: the Ottomans were not necessarily doomed by 1800. However, they probably could not have held onto Circassia if they had lost Crimea, so that part of the map is suspect as well.
I meant that the Ottomans are poorly drawn. ;) Way to overreact.
 
Japan colonizes Ceylon but not Indonesia, Malysia or Phillipenes before Spain? They would have to pass through to get there you know.

Vestigial organ from a previous version of the map, it should not be Japanese. It was intended to be Portuguese, though I am open to change on the matter.

Also what caused the Portuguese to control the eastern coast rather than the western coast? In OTL they controlled the east because they wanted to dominate the Arabian sea trade which presumably still exists. It was also where DeGama first came to India. And places like Goa made fine ports. They would have to pass the eastern coast to get to the west.

You make strong arguments, will change to Portugal having west not east once I find some pre-British India maps to know who should be there instead.

And why the French that abominable pink? >_<

Base Map + Apathy on colors = Pre-Marx French Pinkos

More serious questions: How on Earth could a Spanish Empire with minimal power projection in the Pacific have gotten the entirety of the Spice Isles and held onto them?

Lack of competition, more focus on Pacific

And how do the British have not only the ORV but Detroit as well when they lack New England and thus, the Dutch or French have much better communications to those places?

Native American allies, not colonists, which really describes the entire situation west of the Appalachians, despite what the cities on the map (which I forgot to delete) would have you to believe.


EDIT2: Or, for that matter, completely redo West Africa, because right now it looks like 1400 rather than 1800.

Yes, the Ottoman Empire thing would seem to indicate that.

Issues with base map that I will eventually need to address if I ever wish to make a final draft.


Edit:
Something tells me this isn't the final version. ;)

Obviously, but without feedback, I'll never get to a final version, that's just how I work.
 
Base Map + Apathy on colors = Pre-Marx French Pinkos

Suggest change.

Lack of competition, more focus on Pacific

Not good enough. The Spanish almost certainly couldn't have even conquered the Spice Islands from the natives there, let alone held it against even minimal Dutch or Portuguese effort. As it was, they held onto Manila only because there were pretty much no enemies in the area; they would have failed miserably against the natives without the support of their Chinese citizens there. When they tried to exert control outside of the immediate vicinity of the city, they quickly found native resistance too much for them. I highly, highly doubt they could have subdued a state like Makassar, even.

Native American allies, not colonists, which really describes the entire situation west of the Appalachians, despite what the cities on the map (which I forgot to delete) would have you to believe.

You should probably draw them as independent.
 
You make strong arguments, will change to Portugal having west not east once I find some pre-British India maps to know who should be there instead.

If you need maps:

growthofsikhdy6.jpg


partionofmysoregq2.jpg


warrenhasting1qd4.jpg


Nations that should be there:

Maratha's (presumably not in as much decline without the British)
Mughals
Sikhs (growing increasingly powerful)
Mysore (No British means powerful Mysore, they'll probably have conquered Travancore and seized lands from Maratha's and Hyderabad)
Hyderabad
Bengal (No Brits so it remains independent)
Awadh
Rajputana
Sindh
Kashmir
Orissa
Rohilla's
Afghans
Nepal
Travancore if it hasn't been conquered by Mysore or Portugal.
Assam
Manipur
Bhawalpur
 
Monsieur Thlayli has pointed out the error of my ways :p

A Cantonese nation in Southern China distinct from mainland China would be interesting, given that it would have a more international/cosmopolitan view of the world. It would also have a colonial/tributary "Empire" with entrepot Chinese communities and local tributary allies. It could also possible have a slightly more significant Muslim presence, which would give it a stronger overall negotiating/influencing position in Indonesia split as it was between Hindu's, Muslims and sundry others. A possible intervention in India somewhere along the way might also be interesting in generating a patchwork on alliances/tributary states/entrepots and garrison cities on the east coast of India including Ceylon perhaps. All those annoying little states on the East Coast could use a protector. It will also have a greater scope to partially industrialize.

The Spanish Empire as per the above with be heavily decentralized and perhaps not collapse in a hail of revolutionary fire, Spain itself might steadily be becoming more and more economically irrelevant compared to the America's proper. This would broadly hold for the other Iberians.

The American colonies of Great Britain might still be British, no war of independence, but a steady move towards decentralization and representation. Britain will not have had its dominating position in Australasia, and might have to share with the Dutch, it will also not be as powerful but will have swallowed some of the remains of a defunct Ottoman Empire.

France will hold onto its colonies, and expand into the defunct Ottoman Empire and will still maintain a presence in India. The Ancien Regime might have reformed itself under Turgot might succeed in saving the Regime.

The Dutch will control less of Indonesia, but might expand elsewhere into Australia and New Zealand to make up for it.

Pavel I for the main Russian influence for the period. A colonial Russia would be amusing, especially in a defunct Northern China ruled by whatever Steppe nomads mark out the POD and the collapse of the North with a radical reorientation towards the South. Russia could also have Constantinople... if they were not stymied by the other Europeans.

India will be split between stronger Indian nations, with Chinese stuff and European colonies making up the rest.

Germany what Germany? A Confederation of Northern German and a Confederation of Southern Germany would be cool.

That is kind of a broad overview, with a POD in Asia starting with the collapse of whatever Dynasty gives Southern China the best chance, preferably not to far back. As to Europe, I don't know what the anticident would be to collapse the Ottomans and set off a land grab something would be bound to show up. The rest is up to people's suggestions, the net aim is to have a stronger China with more influence over Asia, with a colonial Europe but not to colonial :p
 
France will hold onto its colonies, and expand into the defunct Ottoman Empire and will still maintain a presence in India. The Ancien regime might have reformed itself under the Turgot might succeed in saving the Regime.

Turgot went too fast (and was unlikely to change this habit), and moreover was pretty bad at finding good sources of credit.
 
This is an alternate history :p

Turgot was stuck between doing it slowly, being forced down by the interest groups, and having them fight a legislative rearguard or moving as quickly as he could and probably burning out in the doing to hand over to a groomed successor. Even if some of his work was eroded it would still have saved the Ancien Regime from itself.

The situation was far from impossible, it was difficult, and the credit issues were major but then it wasn't Turgot's fault that nobody would lend to a soon-to-default-economic-corpse of a state. There were always other options to save the Crown, aside from borrowing even more, they were just unpalatable.
 
This is a general outline:

Genghis Khan is killed early in life in a inter-tribal war this causes the Mongols not to rise as much as they would otherwise. They do rise and attack the Jing they are however not as effective as in OTL, they do significant damage the Jing.

This leaves a heavily weakened Jing Kingdom, and a stronger Southern Song Kingdom which will continue to be separate, this division will eventually become permanent. The South will cultivate an outward outlook in South East Asia. The North will continue as an impoverished state ruined by a long struggle against the Mongols. I&#8217;m not yet sure if the North should be taken over by the Mongols or just left as a state to be perennially overrun by Steppe nomads.

A Song Kingdom with a more international outlook will improve the overall level of development in South East Asia, which will have a knock on effect in terms of Song trade links and the effects of trade therein. Of particular interest would be the increased traffic along the sea routes, going through India, and into the Middle East and finally Europe. It&#8217;s probable that the Song will steadily come to control South East Asia more or less. The desired end result is a patchwork of vassals, tributaries, entre-pots, territories and colonies which give them a loose control over the region and its major players. Australia would also be settled by the Maccasans partly because they are awesome, and partly because they might actually bother to if the Song begin actively trading. There will be a general trend towards earlier advancement as trade and knowledge disperse around the region. The Song Kingdom will also acquire territories in India to give it a more force projection.

The lack of a Mongol invasion is also going to influence the Khwarezmian Empire which will continue to grow, never having been overrun. This might have an interesting effect on India, since it might well expand into India proper. India will continue much as it would have without outside interference past a greater contact with China and the rest of Asia.

At a general note, the silk road will lose importance, since the Song will be able to directly ship the goods overseas, this will affect the Middle East in an interesting way, since it will have a number of nations to ship the spices to including, the Khwarezmian Empire, the Abbasaids and the Ayyubids. An interesting side effect might the resuscitation of the Abbasaids as a viable force, fuelled on an influx of excise duties; it would be unlikely but possible. Another possible side effect would be the continuing strength of Venice and Genoa as they then on-sell the goods to Europe, something which would not be interrupted. This would also impact the Portuguese and Spanish [assuming they survive] in later years, with spice have some degree of competition their desire to try and undercut the Venetians and Genoese would wane. A journey to round the Cape of Good Hope would not happen till significantly later and probably not for spice.

The New World is likely to be a tougher nut to crack, there won&#8217;t be as large a technological gap, and the New World civilizations would probably still fall but it wouldn&#8217;t fall as hard or as fast and might break away from its European colonial masters in some places. Come on Knights in the America&#8217;s would be amusing to say the least.

With no Mongols the Black Death might never each Europe Feudalism might continue on for some time significantly impairing Europe&#8217;s growth. This will also have knock on effects; the Church&#8217;s position of dominance is likely to never be shaken and will more or less continue on with the course it was on before the Plague. It&#8217;s plausible that the whole edifice might come crashing down later if it doesn&#8217;t make a serious attempt at reform.

The various &#8220;Russian&#8221; states are also going to be interesting, they will have breathing space to expand and incorporate the steepes into its territory. Perhaps more interestingly Hungary and Poland will be significantly more powerful. The balance of power might well shift to the East in Europe, as the Eastern states continue to grow. The Romani are unlikely to collapse in this either, they might continue to survive and perhaps regain some measure of power.

I would appreciate input into the likely consequences, since I don&#8217;t think I can quite write the whole thing on my own.
 
This leaves a heavily weakened Jing Kingdom, and a stronger Southern Song Kingdom which will continue to be separate, this division will eventually become permanent. The South will cultivate an outward outlook in South East Asia. The North will continue as an impoverished state ruined by a long struggle against the Mongols. I&#8217;m not yet sure if the North should be taken over by the Mongols or just left as a state to be perennially overrun by Steppe nomads.

The Jin could not really survive this; generally speaking North China was pretty prone to agricultural civilisation collapsing due to steppe nomad pressure, and to steppe nomads then overtaking it and gradually settling down and becoming semi-assimilated.

I predict that the Jin would drag on for a while, then collapse; the Mongol tribes would then take over the Jin territories, likely becoming politically united in the process if not earlier, and will develop a Sinified, but distinctly Mongolian (and likely Buddhist) civilisation uniting both Mongolia and Northern China.

I agree that the Song won't go back north, though.

A Song Kingdom with a more international outlook will improve the overall level of development in South East Asia, which will have a knock on effect in terms of Song trade links and the effects of trade therein. Of particular interest would be the increased traffic along the sea routes, going through India, and into the Middle East and finally Europe.

With no Mongols the Black Death might never each Europe Feudalism might continue on for some time significantly impairing Europe&#8217;s growth. This will also have knock on effects; the Church&#8217;s position of dominance is likely to never be shaken and will more or less continue on with the course it was on before the Plague. It&#8217;s plausible that the whole edifice might come crashing down later if it doesn&#8217;t make a serious attempt at reform.

Actually, greater maritime trade=earlier Black Death going by a slightly different path. Italy is going to suffer.

As a sidenote, I would have to say that the Black Death was more of a catalyst than anything else. Sure, it greatly influenced the exact specific way in which things worked out, but Europe was evolving just fine without it. The Church suffered from entirely internal problems as well as from the rise of the cities which was hampered by the Plague, although the Plague and its social aftereffects certainly gave a boost to heresy and mysticism in general. Classical feudalism was dying away, too, or at least its economic and political significance was. If anything, the Plague set that back as well.

It&#8217;s probable that the Song will steadily come to control South East Asia more or less. The desired end result is a patchwork of vassals, tributaries, entre-pots, territories and colonies which give them a loose control over the region and its major players. Australia would also be settled by the Maccasans partly because they are awesome, and partly because they might actually bother to if the Song begin actively trading. There will be a general trend towards earlier advancement as trade and knowledge disperse around the region. The Song Kingdom will also acquire territories in India to give it a more force projection.

You are seriously overestimating the Song Dynasty, and China's capacity for colonial and commercial expansion in general. I agree that the Chinese would've dominated the sea trade, possibly even farther into the Indian Ocean (though they would've gotten a lot of serious competition), but even then there is a question of whether those Chinese merchants would even be associated with the Song in the first place. It seems likely that a more powerful Chinese diaspora would emerge instead, especially when the Song Dynasty inevitably collapses (Chinese dynasties always do: corruption grows with every generation, and purging it is a short-term solution at best, whereas at worst it either makes the problem worse by elevating a new, greedier and more desperate generation of corrupt bureaucrats or by simply destroying the state entirely), but even before then.

A tributary system seems inevitable, though it would likely be the same system as existed earlier, i.e. it would be mostly just nominal overlordship over all of civilised South-East Asia, backed up by Chinese colonies established and defended by treaty. Maybe if there is a Chinese military revival there could be some interventions against those who defy China too openly or quarrel with the Chinese populated free (possibly even a bit like the Medieval European communes, though ofcourse much more Chinese and Confucian) cities, but that's as much as I can see happening here. I agree that it would revitalise trade and exploration and everything else. India, though? Again, at most there are just going to be trader colonies and the Chinese fleet might be there to protect them against whoever dares mess with the children of the Yellow Emperor; nothing more. It's way too far away, and the Chinese never were eager to expand somewhere far away if they could avoid it: and there many, many ways to avoid it.

The lack of a Mongol invasion is also going to influence the Khwarezmian Empire which
was falling apart at the seams if memory serves. Besides, I'm sure that there still will be a Mongol invasion, of a sorts; steppe dynamics have already been firmly established: whenever population or overgrazing or whatever reaches a certain limit, peoples from the east begin to migrate into northern China and Central Asia, and the same will happen here even without Genghis. It might not amount to as much, ofcourse, but it and the various feudal struggles will still easily bring down Khwarezm.

Ofcourse, without Genghis Khan Central Asia would be much better off, what with its irrigation systems intact and such; I suspect that a new empire might rise here, or even several, likely led by Mongol or other steppe nomads but based on the large cities, but with the decline of the Silk Route the Central Asian civilisation will once again decline and the region will become a backwater, either divided between small local states or a part of Iran, the latter being more likely. Iran, meanwhile, will prosper no matter who rules it (i.e. Turks or natives or any more farfetched options like [insert your favourite Ismailite sect here] or [insert your favourite obscure Middle Eastern ethnicity here] or some version of the Mamlukes) due to the maritime trade, and will likely become the foundation of a great empire, hopefully with a capital (and a Chinese trader colony?) in Shiraz. Minimum conquests are likewise-not-screwed-Iraq and Central Asia, but Asia Minor, the Levant and Oman beckon as well, and ofcourse there is East Africa, though any effectual authority there would be difficult to maintain: still, a Shah-en-Shan could dream, right?

Not sure about your fancy Egyptians, it seems to me that without the Mongols to exterminate their opposition and give them a good light they won't really be as powerful a presence in the Middle East, especially since the Venetians and the Genoese are going to be extra motivated to destroy or subvert them. The Venetians are more likely to support a weaker Egypt, ofcourse, whereas the Genoese are going to help any nice Frenchmen who would want to conquer the place. It might work out; a lot is up to chance here, ofcourse.

An interesting side effect might the resuscitation of the Abbasaids as a viable force, fuelled on an influx of excise duties; it would be unlikely but possible.

Nah.

The New World is likely to be a tougher nut to crack, there won&#8217;t be as large a technological gap, and the New World civilizations would probably still fall but it wouldn&#8217;t fall as hard or as fast and might break away from its European colonial masters in some places. Come on Knights in the America&#8217;s would be amusing to say the least.

I suspect that the New World would be discovered much later than in OTL if maritime trade in the Indian Ocean prospers, though a lot depends on how the Middle East works out. Perhaps Egypto-Persian resistance to Italian infiltration of the Indian Ocean might cause an earlier attempt to literally get around this problem, though (but it won't be much good for this if they just go around Africa).

And what happens there depends a lot on who discovers it when, as well as on sheer chance. That said, diseases would still kill most everyone and realistically I doubt that they would recover in time (it's not so much that it is so very time-consuming a process, historically speaking; but what colonial power is that lenient? The best case situation is ofcourse if North America (or maybe Brazil?) is still discovered first and Central America and Peru are not reached until a few generations later).

The various &#8220;Russian&#8221; states are also going to be interesting, they will have breathing space to expand and incorporate the steepes into its territory. Perhaps more interestingly Hungary and Poland will be significantly more powerful. The balance of power might well shift to the East in Europe, as the Eastern states continue to grow. The Romani are unlikely to collapse in this either, they might continue to survive and perhaps regain some measure of power.

First of all, the Byzantines were in agony and I am not going to be convinced otherwise. ;)

I agree that Eastern Europe would be in a stronger position, ofcourse. Hungary might keep its own dynasty and expand into the Balkans and Galicia; though Poland was perhaps served by the Mongol invasion in that it was reunited this much faster for it - still, it will be much better off economically and socially when it is united. Probably no Poland-Lithuania, though. Lithuania in general will be weaker, ofcourse, what with most of its neighbours not being pounded unconscious and all, though it still would have its opportunities, especially in Polotsk. The Teutonic Order was probably not affected too much by all of these things, though.

The situation in Russia was complicated. I don't think there will be much expansion into the steppe, though; the only ones really interested in doing so would be the Chernigovian princes, and Chernigov was very much in decline by then. Galicia and Vladimir are where its at, ofcourse, as well as possibly Smolensk, though the latter was more of a subregional power unless it could grab and hold on to Kiev and Novgorod (easier than it may seem, but also less valuable now than a century ago). Novgorod would keep a lot of autonomy no matter what, though. Chernigov might yet pull itself together, but not until later. I think that both Galicia and Vladimir could potentially united Russia somewhere in the 14th century; Smolensk or Chernigov are less likely; it is entirely likely that Russia will remain a hodge-podge of small principalities and four or five main powers with whom everyone is aligned, too, though this system would probably collapse by early 16th century at latest. Galicia or maybe Chernigov could potentially unite just the south at some point, in which case it is going to be heavily aligned with either the Catholic Church or what's left of Byzantium (actually, okay, there is one way in which the Byzantine Empire might be revived: if it somehow enters a personal union with Galicia. Then Emperor Roman the Russian will draw upon his resources to beat up Latins and Bulgarians, and move the center of his power to the very awesome, the very-not-encumbered-by-uppity-boyars-but-full-of-well-mannered-capital-nobles-and-court-officials Tsargrad); Vladimir might take over the north and the center; Smolensk might unify the central regions, as already suggested, and then act more or less as the French royal domain vis-a-vis the large feudals, though here they are much larger and more independent, like two or three Burgundies at once, but on the other hand no England, so it might work out. Anyway, the surviving urban society will certainly be nice as far as economic and other development goes.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the decline of the Silk Route and the rise of sea trade would actually change a lot more in Europe itself as well. In particular, it would enrich Constantinople again even after the Fourth Crusade; I doubt that the Byzantines (or the Latins) themselves will be able to use this in any decisive way, though - rather, it would make them a this much more appealing target. Crusaders might sack the city a second time, for one thing; the Bulgarians would do their darndest, too. And ofcourse the already suggested South Russian option... though since this also means the revival of the path from the Varangians to the Greeks it makes the Russian situation this much more complicated, since that path was pretty much the vertebral column of the old Kievan Rus, and would favour whoever controls Kiev and Novgorod (and Novgorod is usually very receptive towards whoever controls Kiev - or was before this path had declined...) for a much more likely and easy reunification of Russia by the early 15th century or so, possibly earlier depending partly on when and how fast this new shift in trade routes occurs. Now, what this means for Russo-Byzantine relations could be anything: Smolensk and even moreso Vladimir are going to be relatively indifferent to Byzantine politics, though the former in particular would still probably take offense to any damage to revived Russian trade there, and there might be a struggle between the Grand Prince of Russia and the Italian city-states and their colonies in the Black Sea region, as well as a lot of political intrigue in Constantinople (but the Russians are unlikely to try and seize power there). The southern princes, however, do have fair enough a chance to seize power, especially since any revival of southern trade would logically benefit them first, and if Russia is united from the south then it might as well end up being Dostoyevsky's nightmare in that the prince might then try and seize Constantinople as suggested above, eventually turning Russia into a backwater province of the Rurikoian Roman Empire.
 
Retroactive deletion.
 
A bit difficult to do that in the Late Middle Ages, ofcourse. ;) But if this arrangement survives into the 19th century (faster technological progress is more or less assured here, by the way), and it very well might, then sure, that seems like a pretty good option.
 
I like where this is going.

What of Germany during all this? Is centralization furthered or not? Perhaps a Poland less interested in Lithuania (but still strong) will become more of a threat to the German principalities, acting as a unifying force, but I'm not really sure.
 
Perhaps a Poland less interested in Lithuania (but still strong) will become more of a threat to the German principalities, acting as a unifying force, but I'm not really sure.

Poland as an unifying force in Germany? :lol: No, Poland will have problems of its own, including both Lithuania and the Teutonic Order, as well as whoever prevails in Russia.

Generally speaking it seems that Eastern Europe will have more in the way of native development and native dynasties, with German colonists and German dynasties alike not becoming quite as powerful as in OTL and instead being focused more on Germany itself. No, I really don't think that this will contribute to the centralisation, although if a general return to north-south rather than west-east trade routes were to occur that would probably serve the Holy Roman Emperor, sort of. Also, relatively speaking the eastern principalities will be weaker than in OTL due to having to contend with stronger neighbours as well as for other reasons, so maybe power will shift more to the center or the west of Germany. But it is all rather difficult to predict.

In any case, I don't think that the changes will come fast enough to save the Hohenstaufen empire, and after that I don't think the HRE will have much of a chance to reassert central authority until the late 15th century or so.
 
The Jin could not really survive this; generally speaking North China was pretty prone to agricultural civilisation collapsing due to steppe nomad pressure, and to steppe nomads then overtaking it and gradually settling down and becoming semi-assimilated.
This is what comes of Masada not listening to me when he contacts me via MSN. :lol: Agreed.
das said:
As a sidenote, I would have to say that the Black Death was more of a catalyst than anything else. Sure, it greatly influenced the exact specific way in which things worked out, but Europe was evolving just fine without it. The Church suffered from entirely internal problems as well as from the rise of the cities which was hampered by the Plague, although the Plague and its social aftereffects certainly gave a boost to heresy and mysticism in general. Classical feudalism was dying away, too, or at least its economic and political significance was. If anything, the Plague set that back as well.
The Black Death's biggest consequences were economic. Real wages for workers, especially urban laborers, skyrocketed all over the Continent, especially in the West, the Balkans, what was left of the Roman Empire, and Egypt. Total production did decline a good deal, but so did rent per acre. Land-intensive activities started gaining within the field of agriculture (so to speak :p), so cereal cultivation was partly replaced with sheep and cattle rearing - so we get urbanization. In OTL Parisian population tripled from the fourteenth to sixteenth centuries, and the German cities like Danzig, Bremen, Lubeck, and Hamburg rose anywhere from two to tenfold over a slightly shorter interval. Increases in urbanization, the decline of prices for animal products like wool, and the increase in real income for laborers meant that there was a wonderful boom in the woolen textile industry, which has interesting consequences for the English economy. And then of course there is the oft-cited effect that the increase in income across the board had for the demand for spices...in short, "men were dying, but coins were not", as Herlihy put it. This massive increase in personal wealth and prices led to the great bullion famine of the fifteenth century; again stimulating a search for greater resources. The Price Revolution was really a consequence of the Black Death, not of the overseas exploration...Anyway, none of that was on track to happen before the Black Death; Europe needed a suitably disastrous drop in population for that kind of stimulus to happen. :p

Yes, it's irrelevant, since there'd still be a plague of this kind if Europe were tied into China via the Indic trade; just showing where Masada is coming from.
das said:
das said:
First of all, the Byzantines were in agony and I am not going to be convinced otherwise. ;)
Yeah, an Abbasid revival is about as viable as a Roman one in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, i.e. not at all. ;)
I like where this is going.
Me too.
 
The Black Death's biggest consequences were economic. Real wages for workers, especially urban laborers, skyrocketed all over the Continent, especially in the West, the Balkans, what was left of the Roman Empire, and Egypt. Total production did decline a good deal, but so did rent per acre. Land-intensive activities started gaining within the field of agriculture (so to speak :p), so cereal cultivation was partly replaced with sheep and cattle rearing - so we get urbanization. In OTL Parisian population tripled from the fourteenth to sixteenth centuries, and the German cities like Danzig, Bremen, Lubeck, and Hamburg rose anywhere from two to tenfold over a slightly shorter interval. Increases in urbanization, the decline of prices for animal products like wool, and the increase in real income for laborers meant that there was a wonderful boom in the woolen textile industry, which has interesting consequences for the English economy. And then of course there is the oft-cited effect that the increase in income across the board had for the demand for spices...in short, "men were dying, but coins were not", as Herlihy put it. This massive increase in personal wealth and prices led to the great bullion famine of the fifteenth century; again stimulating a search for greater resources. The Price Revolution was really a consequence of the Black Death, not of the overseas exploration...Anyway, none of that was on track to happen before the Black Death; Europe needed a suitably disastrous drop in population for that kind of stimulus to happen. :p

Yes, yes, there is all that, and I do not deny that it had a lot of very significant short-term (for a long-term definition of short-term :p ) effects, but it is not as though urbanisation had not been steadily ongoing since the eleventh century or so. The cities were growing and urban economy was developing, if at a somewhat sluggish pace after the initial boom. The process was sped up by decades, perhaps centuries, but it is a bit silly to claim that it was not happening at all before the Plague. Generally speaking this sort of demographic and economic instability is good for refreshing the society and speeding up its progress (the fact that it also sort of disrupts the "healthy", "organic" development, e.g. what you said about personal wealth, can be good in that it indeed stimulates further advances out of desperation); but as for its long-term results, those could have been reached just fine without it.

Besides, some nice Malthusian-induced famines and warfare could've culled the population just fine, though ofcourse not nearly as well as the Plague. But that's what indigenous epidemics are for, no?
 
Retroactive deletion.
 
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