Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
There's always the option of a pre-Commenid Byzantine collapse. But I definitely approve the idea of keeping Burgundy around. Burgundy/Flanders/Holland is a potent combination for a nation-state.
Alternate History Thread IV: The Sequel
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
A pre-Komnenid Byzantine collapse that still allows the preconditions for the formation of Crusader states in the Levant?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Even though the First Crusade was overland that's not a necessity. But you're right.
Mmmm. So how about a PoD? I always thought Epirus/Epeiros and Trebizond were cool states that need to survive in at least some form, but would a PoD after the Frangokratia starts allow Galicia to exist?
Also, I trust you're planning on using the Northern Style map for this little jaunt of yours.
Also, I trust you're planning on using the Northern Style map for this little jaunt of yours.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Yes, I enjoy the old map but accurately drawn borders are superior.
Hm. One could always have the Latin Empire survive...for a time at least. If Nicaea is distracted with the Seljuks/Mongols/etc. and focuses on them, Bulgaria might even take Constantinople.
Hm. One could always have the Latin Empire survive...for a time at least. If Nicaea is distracted with the Seljuks/Mongols/etc. and focuses on them, Bulgaria might even take Constantinople.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Land assaults on Constantinople have a tendency of failing even when based on overwhelmingly good odds.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
The Nicaeans captured it by treachery; the Bulgarians could do the same. Alternatively, Constantinople could just degenerate into a nominally Latin, Venetian-supported city-state, caught in the cold war between the Byzantine successors and the Bulgarians. (I mean it sort of already did that OTL.)
But that state of affairs would only last for so long. The city will eventually fall to one party or another.
But that state of affairs would only last for so long. The city will eventually fall to one party or another.
I doubt both of these very seriously. The resurrected Bulgarians were horrendously overstretched as it was. And the problem that the Latin Empire had was that it reached its culminating point of success ridiculously early, and that nobody cared about it enough to help it. It was almost remarkable that the other Latin ministates in the Aegean basin survived as long as they did.
And that won't help either Epirus or Trebizond.
Which is the point.
I generally regard the Bulgaria of this period as mostly played out compared to its predecessor, and having great difficulty holding onto what it had; the inability to make gains during the most opportune time (the Civil War of John V and John VI) as compared with the even weaker Serbia of Stephen Dushan does not look good on a CV, nor does its failure to make ground against John III when Nicaea was temporarily overextended during the later part of that emperor's reign. And of course the rapid collapse after John Alexander's death doesn't speak well either for its internal stability, especially compared to the relatively rocklike Byzantine successor states or most of the Turkish emirates.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
What about it?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Epirus winning the battle, humbling Bulgaria, and subsequently taking Constantinople would probably be a sufficient PoD, no? (Alternatively, having Nicaea still take Constantinople but Epirus gets a stronger hold on Greece and Thessalonica.)
I had a longer, more drawn out response to that but it got lost in the database error. Short answer: yes, Epirus does get big dividends (technically it should be called the Empire of Thessalonica at this juncture ) and probably can capture Constantinople now that Asen is out of the way and John of Brienne has not yet appeared on the scene. Also immediate knock on effects include greater Nicaean progress in the Aegean islands and probably the Bulgarian church (re)union with Rome lasts longer.
) and probably can capture Constantinople now that Asen is out of the way and John of Brienne has not yet appeared on the scene. Also immediate knock on effects include greater Nicaean progress in the Aegean islands and probably the Bulgarian church (re)union with Rome lasts longer.
Kraznaya
Princeps
This time period is contemporary with the Mongol invasions, which I would imagine would force any NES in the time period to eventually center on.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Possibly.
I'm interested in the mid to long-term effects of Epirus taking Constantinople. Hungary will almost certainly take advantage of a faster Bulgarian decline, no?
Anyone want to fashion a TL out of this idea? I'm not really sure what the ripple effects of this would be.
I would be amiss in saying that I wouldn't want to try, but this week is uniquely terrible for me, as I've mentioned. Further, I'd need help on anything outside the Aegean and Anatolia, and I have limited sources on the period.
Further, I'd need help on anything outside the Aegean and Anatolia, and I have limited sources on the period.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I need ideas on how to deal with mechanics like feudalism and intermarriage. And the HRE. >_<
But I'll move that discussion over to the development thread after we have a TL.
But I'll move that discussion over to the development thread after we have a TL.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Hmm...after examining some maps of the 1240's...I'm not entirely convinced that this period can be simulated realistically with my semi-limited historical knowledge. The intermarriages alone are madness.
If someone is willing to translate the Conde map over to Northern Style, I might just do that instead. Alternatively, if das is willing to put together a COHERENT TL for that awesome Kingdom of Arcadia map that almost but not quite got turned into a SINES, I would do that. You've already answered reams of questions on that map, das, so it should be easy.
Wanting to get something off the ground by the middle of this month, I want to start working on stats ASAP. I WILL be taking nation reservations, and reserve the right to deny nations to unqualified players.
If someone is willing to translate the Conde map over to Northern Style, I might just do that instead. Alternatively, if das is willing to put together a COHERENT TL for that awesome Kingdom of Arcadia map that almost but not quite got turned into a SINES, I would do that. You've already answered reams of questions on that map, das, so it should be easy.
Wanting to get something off the ground by the middle of this month, I want to start working on stats ASAP. I WILL be taking nation reservations, and reserve the right to deny nations to unqualified players.
Hmm...after examining some maps of the 1240's...I'm not entirely convinced that this period can be simulated realistically with my semi-limited historical knowledge. The intermarriages alone are madness.
If someone is willing to translate the Conde map over to Northern Style, I might just do that instead. Alternatively, if das is willing to put together a COHERENT TL for that awesome Kingdom of Arcadia map that almost but not quite got turned into a SINES, I would do that. You've already answered reams of questions on that map, das, so it should be easy.
Wanting to get something off the ground by the middle of this month, I want to start working on stats ASAP. I WILL be taking nation reservations, and reserve the right to deny nations to unqualified players.
Oh well...in that case...Chernigov for the SINES V map, and Japan for the Unenlightened World
If there is anything you trust me to help you with, just let me know
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
When I do get a TL? Stats. 
I vaguely recall making stats for the HRE on that map, but even so I think I've gone long enough without playing to stereotypes. If you do use the Arcadia map - when you do use the Arcadia map - Imma be really interested in the Despotate of Ionia. Or if you go Unenlightened World, that bright blue Bavarian thing looks nice and creamy.
