Zack
99% hot gas
Or we could ask both of them.Maybe we should just ask one of the female forumites of CFC.
Are you a Nice Guy who can't seem to get a date because you're too nice?
- Thread starter downtown
- Start date
I used to claim for the nice guys finish last meme, but around the point I started actually talking to girls I fairly quickly (certainly by the end of my first relationship) that I wasn't a nice guy. I was just an awkward teenager who'd been homeschooled...
Since then I try to embrace whatever kind of guy it is that I am, not nice but not really outlaw biker either
I do however have a few theories on the friendzone, even though I have never really been stuck in it myself. Though I was in a friend zone style dependent sort of relationship with my first ex after we broke up for a few months, but I was getting laid whatever emotional tortures came with it.
Lemma 1:
Men and women are both able to tell if someone is sexually appealing very quickly through looks and several intangibles. This initial rating is rarely revised up, though often revised down.
example if you see a girl and think she is doable, then learn she has herpes/is stupid/from Alabama, you may choose your mind.
But if she initially is not hot, what you learn and what happens later is unlikely to make her seem hot.
It is basically known that men work this way, but many people assume women work in some other mysterious way, they don't.
Note: Just because attractiveness can be judged quickly, doesn't mean sex comes immediately there are a variety of reasons the act would lag behind the interest by days/weeks/months.
Lemma 2:
Women can judge their own attractiveness relatively accurately, most men cannot.
Most men, myself included have no idea how attractive we are. We might have a general idea physically, but much of men's attractiveness is in some intangibles that we don't understand well.
Lemma 3:
Many guys are under the mistaken assumption that girl attraction can be manipulated by kindness/gifts/building a positive platonic relationship.
This is stupid. After all you can't win a guy's heart this way, why would women work this way? To be fair movies tell us it works this way and many women claim it works this way.
Note: Occasionally this does work, after all flattery is strong, but I believe there are usually other circumstances that lead to this. Or perhaps some small percentage of women work this way.
Theorem:
The friend zone doesn't exist.
However it appears to exist because of the misconceptions in the Lemmas.
Here's about how it goes:
"Nice Guy" meets girl: (We shall call him "N" and her "G")
N meets G.
N is attracted to G, G is not attracted to N, but likes him platonically.
N makes several mistakes first he doesn't know (1) thus he assumes that even though G isn't attracted now there is a high chance she might be in the future.
Due to (2) N falsely estimates his own attractiveness level as being higher than it is, perhaps higher than the other men G is interested in, even though it is likely lower.
N doesn't know (3) and falsely believes he can woo G into liking him even if she doesn't already.
N believes he has been friend zoned.
The fact is (male or female) it sucks to have a friend you want to bone, who doesn't want to bone you. But it's not super complicated there is no "friend zone" just people you like talking to but not boning. For example I have a female friend who has a hardcore crush on me, I am not attracted to her in the slightest, but I like talking to her and hanging out. I have not "friend zoned" her, I just want a non boning relationship and she understands that better than the guys who think they are friend zoned because of the gender asymmetry in the three Lemmas.
Just to expand on Lemma 2: because I think it's very interesting and somewhat relevant.
Attractiveness is of course based on some combination of straight looks and intangibles (money, power, confidence, intelligence, humor, perceived compatibility, etc.)
As a rule of thumb looks are a larger share of the pie to men but by no means all of it, also looks are a larger factor for a hook up while intangibles are a larger factor for a relationship.
For me I'de hazard a guess that the split is something like 80/20 for a hook up and 50/50 for a relationship (Maybe 40/60, but looks are definitely a litmus test).
For most women I'de guess the ratio is much lower...
1) As a society we have a much better idea of what looks attractive on a women than on a man. Thus even when it comes to pure looks men are less able to honestly rate themselves.
2) Intangibles are very hard to rate, especially since the variance is much higher person to person. But I think people in general tend to heavily overrate their intangibles, but since intangibles are more important to women this again makes it harder for men to accurately self rate.
Anyway comments are welcome, tell me I'm stupid whatever...
btw I'm possibly headed into a "friend zone" type of situation at the moment, but mostly because I haven't figured out a damn way to ask this girl out. Beyond the fact we've gone to dinner multiple times etc. I'm just being a <cat> and fearing rejection... So this knowledge does me little good at the moment
Since then I try to embrace whatever kind of guy it is that I am, not nice but not really outlaw biker either
I do however have a few theories on the friendzone, even though I have never really been stuck in it myself. Though I was in a friend zone style dependent sort of relationship with my first ex after we broke up for a few months, but I was getting laid whatever emotional tortures came with it.
Lemma 1:
Men and women are both able to tell if someone is sexually appealing very quickly through looks and several intangibles. This initial rating is rarely revised up, though often revised down.
example if you see a girl and think she is doable, then learn she has herpes/is stupid/from Alabama, you may choose your mind.
But if she initially is not hot, what you learn and what happens later is unlikely to make her seem hot.
It is basically known that men work this way, but many people assume women work in some other mysterious way, they don't.
Note: Just because attractiveness can be judged quickly, doesn't mean sex comes immediately there are a variety of reasons the act would lag behind the interest by days/weeks/months.
Lemma 2:
Women can judge their own attractiveness relatively accurately, most men cannot.
Most men, myself included have no idea how attractive we are. We might have a general idea physically, but much of men's attractiveness is in some intangibles that we don't understand well.
Lemma 3:
Many guys are under the mistaken assumption that girl attraction can be manipulated by kindness/gifts/building a positive platonic relationship.
This is stupid. After all you can't win a guy's heart this way, why would women work this way? To be fair movies tell us it works this way and many women claim it works this way.
Note: Occasionally this does work, after all flattery is strong, but I believe there are usually other circumstances that lead to this. Or perhaps some small percentage of women work this way.
Theorem:
The friend zone doesn't exist.
However it appears to exist because of the misconceptions in the Lemmas.
Here's about how it goes:
"Nice Guy" meets girl: (We shall call him "N" and her "G")
N meets G.
N is attracted to G, G is not attracted to N, but likes him platonically.
N makes several mistakes first he doesn't know (1) thus he assumes that even though G isn't attracted now there is a high chance she might be in the future.
Due to (2) N falsely estimates his own attractiveness level as being higher than it is, perhaps higher than the other men G is interested in, even though it is likely lower.
N doesn't know (3) and falsely believes he can woo G into liking him even if she doesn't already.
N believes he has been friend zoned.
The fact is (male or female) it sucks to have a friend you want to bone, who doesn't want to bone you. But it's not super complicated there is no "friend zone" just people you like talking to but not boning. For example I have a female friend who has a hardcore crush on me, I am not attracted to her in the slightest, but I like talking to her and hanging out. I have not "friend zoned" her, I just want a non boning relationship and she understands that better than the guys who think they are friend zoned because of the gender asymmetry in the three Lemmas.
Just to expand on Lemma 2: because I think it's very interesting and somewhat relevant.
Attractiveness is of course based on some combination of straight looks and intangibles (money, power, confidence, intelligence, humor, perceived compatibility, etc.)
As a rule of thumb looks are a larger share of the pie to men but by no means all of it, also looks are a larger factor for a hook up while intangibles are a larger factor for a relationship.
For me I'de hazard a guess that the split is something like 80/20 for a hook up and 50/50 for a relationship (Maybe 40/60, but looks are definitely a litmus test).
For most women I'de guess the ratio is much lower...
1) As a society we have a much better idea of what looks attractive on a women than on a man. Thus even when it comes to pure looks men are less able to honestly rate themselves.
2) Intangibles are very hard to rate, especially since the variance is much higher person to person. But I think people in general tend to heavily overrate their intangibles, but since intangibles are more important to women this again makes it harder for men to accurately self rate.
Anyway comments are welcome, tell me I'm stupid whatever...
btw I'm possibly headed into a "friend zone" type of situation at the moment, but mostly because I haven't figured out a damn way to ask this girl out. Beyond the fact we've gone to dinner multiple times etc. I'm just being a <cat> and fearing rejection... So this knowledge does me little good at the moment
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
@nc-1701: Nothing like some good ol' fashioned overanlysis.
I've gone into the "friendzone" once. But I fell for the girl after we became good friends (and we still are... I think). I didn't mind as much as I would think now I should have bene when she rejected me - frankly, to be honest, i was expecting it. I was nevertheless frustrated for different reasons which just happened to be at the same time.
All in all, though, I guess it doesn't make a difference whether you're nice or evil or [insert some other vague personality-describing adjective]. Stuff happens. If stuff happens, stuff happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. The important thing is going with the flow of things and not getting worked up about everything, not being tense. This, I think, is what people mean when they say one should be "confident". I never liked that word, though, feeling it always carries with it a connotation of pride and vanity - perhaps it is a cultural difference (I'm Asian, I've been raised to be humble), or just a personality or personal background thing - but I think the way my dad put it is better - just be cool with things and go with the flow, more or less, and don't get worked up if things do go well or not (not his exact words, but that's basically his advice to me). This I think is something I've been trying to learn very hard over these years, and I usppose I'm slowly getting there in various aspects of life.
Whether it'll pay off in the realm of romance, I'll see. But, well, I'm a bit more relaxed over it all. At least more so than I was ages ago, Well, in some respects.
I've gone into the "friendzone" once. But I fell for the girl after we became good friends (and we still are... I think). I didn't mind as much as I would think now I should have bene when she rejected me - frankly, to be honest, i was expecting it. I was nevertheless frustrated for different reasons which just happened to be at the same time.
All in all, though, I guess it doesn't make a difference whether you're nice or evil or [insert some other vague personality-describing adjective]. Stuff happens. If stuff happens, stuff happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. The important thing is going with the flow of things and not getting worked up about everything, not being tense. This, I think, is what people mean when they say one should be "confident". I never liked that word, though, feeling it always carries with it a connotation of pride and vanity - perhaps it is a cultural difference (I'm Asian, I've been raised to be humble), or just a personality or personal background thing - but I think the way my dad put it is better - just be cool with things and go with the flow, more or less, and don't get worked up if things do go well or not (not his exact words, but that's basically his advice to me). This I think is something I've been trying to learn very hard over these years, and I usppose I'm slowly getting there in various aspects of life.
Whether it'll pay off in the realm of romance, I'll see. But, well, I'm a bit more relaxed over it all. At least more so than I was ages ago, Well, in some respects.
This has happened to me several times both ways.
Not saying it can't be true as a general rule.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 10,759
"Confidence" has been more or less applauded. And yeah it is a good criteria. But I think another POV is even more useful.
It is about what one has to offer which attracts. Not merely in romance. In friendship, too.
Most fundamentally, what we seek is to feel good. And people with confidence are more able to let us feel good. I don't think that actually needs any explanation. Just look into your own experience. In principle, confident people can make us feel better than not so confident people.
Of course, being nice is in principle a thing of use, too. Something that makes us feel better. But only superficially. What makes us feel really good isn't just others being nice. It is others giving ourself a sense of strength. Yes this is the evolutionary angle speaking and I find it perfectly suitable here. Strength is all it is about. But how strength ought to manifest may vary. I don't think there is an on-the-ground-magic-formular. But I do think it comes down to making the other one feel strength. Be it in romance or friendship. Not strength in relation to yourself. More a general sense of strength. Of survival.
Survival - strength. One just needs to learn how to see the different dimensions, ways and extends which may project strength. And that IMO is a thing that best works on intuition. One just needs to get "into the flow". And how to do that? Well the first step is to relax and see social interaction for what it is - the seeking of strength. But without all that stigma taught - Just letting it go and see what your instincts reveal. Instincts. A thing "nice guys" seem to lack.
Well that is just my two cents. Feel free to disagree
It is about what one has to offer which attracts. Not merely in romance. In friendship, too.
Most fundamentally, what we seek is to feel good. And people with confidence are more able to let us feel good. I don't think that actually needs any explanation. Just look into your own experience. In principle, confident people can make us feel better than not so confident people.
Of course, being nice is in principle a thing of use, too. Something that makes us feel better. But only superficially. What makes us feel really good isn't just others being nice. It is others giving ourself a sense of strength. Yes this is the evolutionary angle speaking and I find it perfectly suitable here. Strength is all it is about. But how strength ought to manifest may vary. I don't think there is an on-the-ground-magic-formular. But I do think it comes down to making the other one feel strength. Be it in romance or friendship. Not strength in relation to yourself. More a general sense of strength. Of survival.
Survival - strength. One just needs to learn how to see the different dimensions, ways and extends which may project strength. And that IMO is a thing that best works on intuition. One just needs to get "into the flow". And how to do that? Well the first step is to relax and see social interaction for what it is - the seeking of strength. But without all that stigma taught - Just letting it go and see what your instincts reveal. Instincts. A thing "nice guys" seem to lack.
Well that is just my two cents. Feel free to disagree
Why? Every time I've given my opinion in these kinds of threads, I've been dismissed with a "you don't know what you're talking about because you're a woman" attitude. Then I wonder why you all don't just write to Dear Abby and be done with it.Maybe we should just ask one of the female forumites of CFC.
You walk up to her and ask her if she would like to go to whatever place it was you had in mind/do whatever activity you had in mind (assuming it's the sort of thing people can do in public), and don't place too many expectations on the answer.btw I'm possibly headed into a "friend zone" type of situation at the moment, but mostly because I haven't figured out a damn way to ask this girl out. Beyond the fact we've gone to dinner multiple times etc. I'm just being a <cat> and fearing rejection... So this knowledge does me little good at the moment
I've always figured that a nice guy is nice because that's his nature. If he's nice just because he wants something and figures that's the easiest way to manipulate the other person, he can go to hell.
I'm not saying it's wrong to hope the other person will reciprocate. That's something that nearly everybody does. But creating an "obligation" where none should exist is simply wrong.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
I don't have the Nice Guy problem.
I have the "whelp, there are like 3 girls, all of who I don't talk to in my classes, and the social clubs I go to range similarly from 0% to 15% women". As well as the whole "I don't really like talking to people in general" problem.
nothing nice about it, just also incapable of being mean if you never interact.
Futurama sums it up:
Leela: "Fry. Please try to understand. You're a man. I'm a woman. We're just too different."
I have the "whelp, there are like 3 girls, all of who I don't talk to in my classes, and the social clubs I go to range similarly from 0% to 15% women". As well as the whole "I don't really like talking to people in general" problem.
nothing nice about it, just also incapable of being mean if you never interact.
Futurama sums it up:
Leela: "Fry. Please try to understand. You're a man. I'm a woman. We're just too different."
TomYo689
Emperor
Valka how many guy friends do you have
Anything to pt off my Algebraic Topology homework@nc-1701: Nothing like some good ol' fashioned overanlysis.
Obviously there are exceptions... I've certainly found people get more attractive to me, but usually it's someone I already was attracted to then we started dating and it intensified sort of thing.
Also note I'm not saying a person's attractiveness is constant, if you significantly change your appearance/personality etc. then obviously peoples feelings toward you may change as a result.
Of course... That's really easy to do, and we've had some good times. Even went drinking downtown and she crashed at my house once (nothing happened). It's just that next step has alluded me, that one where I put myself out there and can't play it off as something else. The options are either verbal questioning/discussing of feelings... Or just going for a kiss and seeing what happens... Both are potentially awkward and I haven't had a good opportunity.
This about sums up my problems these days...
There's always a straightforward "I would like to kiss you" or "wanna make out?" of course. Dorky and obvious is always an option.
Why do you ask?Most of the guys I've ever been friends with have been in the science fiction community, gamers, the Society for Creative Anachronism, or the theatre. Some have been single, some married, some in relationships, a couple of them were gay... it's the common interests that matter to me. And yes, there were times when their girlfriends/wives were suspicious that OMG - I was out to Steal Their Man!!!
rolleyes. But my personal ethics and conscience have always told me that it is absolutely WRONG to chase after a guy who is already married or otherwise in a relationship. Casual friends? Fine. Anything else? Absolutely not fine.So asking for a date isn't the problem - it's what you hope will happen after, right? Sorry, there's no absolute answer to that. Asking her how she feels is never wrong, in my opinion. It can be awkward, but as long as you're sincere and respectful (and she is too, btw), the situation should work out.
TomYo689
Emperor
I guess asking a specific number doesn't matter for the discussion. But you seem to have taken it in a different direction, this thread hasn't mentioned guys who aren't single.
I've always figured that a nice guy is nice because that's his nature
This above sentence is the misconception girls are believed to have. I'm not here to defend "nice guys" but it's pretty convenient to just believe they like you because you're such a cool person and not because of your gender (ps. guys generally don't treat other guys nice like girls). You can only do that because they don't bring up their feelings either out of respect or read: thread topic
I've always figured that a nice guy is nice because that's his nature
This above sentence is the misconception girls are believed to have. I'm not here to defend "nice guys" but it's pretty convenient to just believe they like you because you're such a cool person and not because of your gender (ps. guys generally don't treat other guys nice like girls). You can only do that because they don't bring up their feelings either out of respect or read: thread topic
The OP is not single, and some of the posters who have replied are also not single. I think it's a valid part of the discussion, because there are married/attached guys who still want to date other women - either because they're unfaithful, or because they have an "open marriage." Some of these are "nice guys" - except guys who cheat are not really so nice after all.
You have misunderstood what I said. To me, a nice guy is nice - because that's his normal personality. If he were "nice" to me for some other reason that was selfish or manipulative and uncaring of my own feelings or opinions, he would not be nice. And I would thereafter avoid (or at least be extremely careful, if avoidance wasn't possible).
You still haven't said why you asked how many guy friends I have/had. Why should a specific number matter at all? In all honesty, I'd rather have a friend I can share common interests with, or chat with and remain friends with, than get into a situation where if something bad happens, the friendship and trust are permanently lost, along with any deeper feelings.
Mise
isle of lucy
Hah, those were great. And Cheezy's XKCD too.
My problem, like kennigit's, is that I don't talk to enough girls.
My problem, like kennigit's, is that I don't talk to enough girls.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 26,698
Pretty much this.
I get the impression that as soon as our mothers put us in a room to sleep on our own, we start crying out with loneliness.
I think, for most of us, we continue this until somebody agrees to sleep with us - on a more or less permanent basis - or we get over being so bothered.
Possibly.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
@Valka- I agree with you on how some guys are just nice people, not expecting some sort of reward for it, because that's exactly how I am.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
I'm a nice person, and I don't wonder why girls don't date me. I wonder why there is nobody I feel like dating.
Obviously you're quite humble too.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
I don't want to be a nice guy. I remember being told an Acrostic of Nice is about how you are not important enough to be cared about, or something like that. I just can't remember how it goes. The point being that if you are just 'nice' then you aren't doing enough to stand out among the crowd
But for the most part it seem that we are no understanding what women are saying to us, thus we need a man translator.
Link to video.
But for the most part it seem that we are no understanding what women are saying to us, thus we need a man translator.
Link to video.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2012
- Messages
- 26,698
Good grief. That's a real product???? That someone would pay real money for?
Nah! I don't believe it.
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