Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[warpus]

I'm not LDS and I'm not offended by it.

Of course, not everyone is. But a lot of people find the practice not only offensive, but also highly disrespectful, and very presumptuous. If you don't mind being recruited to the church after you've died, that's cool, you're consenting.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Because the guy is dead. He is unable to join any new organizations anymore. His life is over.

By posthumously signing him up for the hitler youth, a manchester united fan club, or mormonism, or WHATEVER, you are implying that he endorsed these organizations in some way.

That's why it's offensive and disrespectful to his memory. The guy's made all his choices. Don't make any new ones for him. It's not your place.

Well, if there is a life after this one, then he isn't done making choices, is he?

I mean, seriously, you seem to miss what I am saying people are free to accept or reject what we have done for them, from the next life. I can't imagine any scenario in which they would be bothered by it. if we aren't right about the correctness of this doctrine, we haven't even made them join our church, because baptism by proxy holds no efficacy.

Ah, the "everyone else is doing it" excuse. Nope, not good enough

Well, are you complaining about how offensive it is for them?

 

[bhsup]

Because the guy is dead. He is unable to join any new organizations anymore. His life is over.

Only his mortal existence on Earth is over.

 

[warpus]

I mean, seriously, you seem to miss what I am saying people are free to accept or reject what we have done for them

No, because they are dead.

Dead. Gone. Deceased. Expired. No more.

Feel free to convert the living. Let the dead Rest In Peace.

edit: Seriously though, your inability to understand why someone could find this disrespectful and offensive is very telling. It's like you've been ignoring everything that I've been saying just so you can go to sleep tonight not wondering whether this sort of thing is moral or not.

But I guess that answers my initial question of "Do Mormon leaders realize how offensive this sort of thing is to some people?".. The answer is "Yes", but they don't care. How nice..

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

No, because they are dead.

Dead. Gone. Deceased. Expired. No more.

What part of "we believe in a life after death" don't you get?

Feel free to convert the living. Let the dead Rest In Peace.

We're not bothering them. They can accept or reject the work done for them.

edit: Seriously though, your inability to understand why someone could find this disrespectful and offensive is very telling. It's like you've been ignoring everything that I've been saying just so you can go to sleep tonight not wondering whether this sort of thing is moral or not.

it bothers me that you seem to think I am lying here. The fact of the matter is, you haven't said anything I haven't heard before; and just like before, you have yet to explain exactly how anyone is ACTUALLY worse off as a result of what we have done. The dead? Either they don't care or we have done them a service.

I can't come up with any explanation for how this is immoral. We have compelled no one to do anything they don't want to do. You have said "this is terrible" but you seem to base this in simultaneously thinking that people have died no longer exist, and that they can still be affected by what we do, and that although what we do has no power, it still affects people.

But I guess that answers my initial question of "Do Mormon leaders realize how offensive this sort of thing is to some people?".. The answer is "Yes", but they don't care. How nice..

Well, why should they? Lots of things are offensive to various people. I would go so far as to say that every ideology and every religious doctrine in existence offends SOMEONE, somewhere. There is no reason to avoid believing anything just so that no one is bothered.

By the way? If someone came up to me and told me that they had just made me an honorary member of the Hitler Youth, I wouldn't be offended. I would just ignore them.

 

[Berzerker]

Do y'all have any legends etc about the Moab area and its topography? I saw some weird stuff when I was checking out the Indian culture there and not all of it looked "native". Did Mormons do any carving on rock outcrops.

 

[Plotinus]

I think on the issue about baptising the dead and its offensiveness, it is hard for each side to understand the other because they are viewing it in quite different ways.

To the Mormon such as Eran, the practice is viewed in theoretical terms as being about salvation. Either Mormonism is true or it is not true. If it is true, then post-mortem baptism may help people. If it isn't true, then it doesn't harm people. Either way there's no particular reason not to do it and there may be good reason to do it, at least if you think Mormonism is true or has a good chance of being true. One might liken it to giving an ill person medicine that you think may cure them, but you are at least sure won't harm them. Why not? Just as in the case of the ill person one's primary concern is for their recovery, so too here one's primary concern is for the salvation of the person being baptised.

To the non-Mormon (who finds it offensive) such as Warpus, it's viewed in a completely different way, namely identity and belonging. What matters is what group a person belongs to, how they identify themselves, and how other people identify them. From this perspective, to impose an identity upon someone that they do not choose themselves is an extremely offensive thing to do. The issue of salvation is really neither here nor there. Someone who takes this view just isn't interested in it and probably doesn't believe in it on any terms. What matters to them is that people are re-identifying somebody - who is dead and cannot speak for themselves - and essentially inducting them into an alien group. If you care about identity and group membership, this is like a sort of kidnapping. This is why the practice has been particularly sensitive in the case of Holocaust victims, because (a) part of the crimes against them was the fact that they were stripped of their identity, culture, and indeed humanity; (b) Judaism as a religion is strongly bound up with cultural practices, much more than the believing of doctrines, at least compared to other monotheistic religions, so it's all about identity and group membership to start with; and (c) there is a long history of Christians forcing Jews to abandon their religion and culture and convert to Christianity, or at the very least, suppressing their religion and culture. So inevitably the relatives of Holocaust victims would be particularly likely to take this sort of point of view.

Speaking for myself, I would take the view expressed by Eran. I don't think that "baptising" a dead person can do them any harm because I don't think that the dead can be harmed. It wouldn't bother me if a Mormon "baptised" any of my dead relatives or me after my death. I wouldn't want to be a Mormon, but I don't think a dead person can be recruited into any group, so if Mormons "baptise" me after my death, that doesn't make me a Mormon. However, I can see why some people would find this offensive, because they approach it with a different set of criteria from me and they evaluate behaviour of this kind by a completely different set of standards. This is why there is such lack of comprehension between the two sides.

 

[El_Machinae]

I can see legitimate offense if someone's religion suspected that the baptising would be harming the souls of their dead ancestors. Like (for example) if it distressed their souls to be subjected to rituals, etc.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I can see legitimate offense if someone's religion suspected that the baptising would be harming the souls of their dead ancestors. Like (for example) if it distressed their souls to be subjected to rituals, etc.

I suppose that actually would make sense - I am unaware of any religion that believes such a thing, but that isn't to say they don't exist.

 

[Thlayli]

Does the Mormon belief in a goddess married to God the Father come from any Biblical basis, or from the revelation of Joseph Smith alone?

Continuing with the marriage analogy, do Mormons believe that Jesus was conceived through some sort of god-sex?

 

[timtofly]

On the baptism issue:

My thoughts are that it is offensive, because there is a "spiritual" non-physical aspect to it. I have nothing against so called "believers" nor so called "non-beleivers". BUT it seems that those who do not grasp the spiritual claim an irrational "offensive" "feeling" to anything spiritual.

The debate in psychological circles is that there is a strong "spiritual" aspect to humanity. If we ever get to the point where the spiritual is seperated from the state (society itself), all humanity will be offended by the least thing imaginable.

 

[Yeekim]

Speaking for myself, I would take the view expressed by Eran. I don't think that "baptising" a dead person can do them any harm because I don't think that the dead can be harmed. It wouldn't bother me if a Mormon "baptised" any of my dead relatives or me after my death. I wouldn't want to be a Mormon, but I don't think a dead person can be recruited into any group, so if Mormons "baptise" me after my death, that doesn't make me a Mormon.

This.

 

[mayor]

How does the ritual of baptising a deceased work?

and

Do Mormons believe in hell or something similar?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Does the Mormon belief in a goddess married to God the Father come from any Biblical basis, or from the revelation of Joseph Smith alone?

Neither, actually. The existence of a Heavenly Mother is basically inferred - if we are to become like God, and God was once like us, and we need to be married to become like God, then it stands to reason that God also needed to be married to become as He is. But there is no official revelation on the matter.

I don't know of a lot of divine beings in world religion whose existence is basically inferred like that . . .

Continuing with the marriage analogy, do Mormons believe that Jesus was conceived through some sort of god-sex?

SOME Mormons do. We do teach that Jesus is the literal physical son of God, but there is no revelation saying what process was used. Some church leaders have said that Jesus was conceived in the usual way, and some (not most) members now think it happened that way. I have actually seen (and been involved in) theological arguments on that very subject. But it wouldn't be accurate to say that "Mormons believe" that.

How does the ritual of baptising a deceased work?

Well, the name and information of a deceased person is identified. We practice baptism by immersion, for the living and the dead. In the temple, an individual stands in as a proxy and is baptized in their name.

Do Mormons believe in hell or something similar?

Not in the traditional sense. Those who do not repent of their sins, in this life or the next, will have to suffer for them, but not eternally - after that, they will move on to an afterlife that, no matter how wicked they were in this life, is unimaginably better than anything we can experience on earth.

 

[mayor]

follow up questions

Well, the name and information of a deceased person is identified. We practice baptism by immersion, for the living and the dead. In the temple, an individual stands in as a proxy and is baptized in their name.

Is it also possible to stand in as a proxy for a living person?

Not in the traditional sense. Those who do not repent of their sins, in this life or the next, will have to suffer for them, but not eternally - after that, they will move on to an afterlife that, no matter how wicked they were in this life, is unimaginably better than anything we can experience on earth.

Will, all, non-Mormons move to this afterlife of suffering?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Is it also possible to stand in as a proxy for a living person?

No, we don't baptize by proxy those who have the option of doing it themselves.

Will, all, non-Mormons move to this afterlife of suffering?

No. Just people who don't accept Christ's sacrifice for us (whether they do so on earth or in heaven).

 

[_random_]

No. Just people who don't accept Christ's sacrifice for us (whether they do so on earth or in heaven).

So are other Christians allowed right into Heaven?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So are other Christians allowed right into Heaven?

Well, anyone can get into heaven regardless of their religious beliefs on earth - it's a matter of repenting of one's sins, and receiving the proper ordinances (or rituals) either yourself or via proxy. And those rituals need to be performed by someone with the proper divine authority, which we believe is currently found only within the LDS Church.

 

[warpus]

What part of "we believe in a life after death" don't you get?

You can believe whatever you want, it doesn't make it a fact.

I can go ahead and start believing that all dead Mormons should have cream cheese spread all over their bodies and that this will ensure that they live forever in happy happy land. But that doesn't mean that it should make it okay for me to do so without asking permission first.

it bothers me that you seem to think I am lying here. The fact of the matter is, you haven't said anything I haven't heard before; and just like before, you have yet to explain exactly how anyone is ACTUALLY worse off as a result of what we have done. The dead? Either they don't care or we have done them a service.

It's about respecting someone who has passed. They have made all their choices, they have lived their life, their life legacy had a start and an end.

It's not about the person who is dead at all, because.. he/she is dead.

Imagine for a second that your grandfather just passed. He lived his life, he has some sort of a legacy, and his relatives will remember him for those things attributed to him: the organizations he belonged to, the things he believed in, the things that were important to him, etc.

It's very disrespectful for an unrelated 3rd party to alter that legacy by signing him up to things that he did not believe in, did not sign up for himself, and something that wasn't important to him.

It's not your place to alter his legacy. Ask his family. If you don't have their permission, kindly sod off.

Well, why should they? Lots of things are offensive to various people.

Because we live in a civilized society, and if someone says "No, you can't do that to my deceased husband, I find that offensive", you don't do it? (unless you have some sort of a legal claim to go ahead with it)

Is it really so hard to reach out to the family and ask their permission? Or to ask the permission of the person while they are still alive?

How would you feel if I posthumously signed up all your dead relatives to the hitler youth? And if their names came up from time to time when people did hitler youth research? You might not care, but I would.

To the non-Mormon (who finds it offensive) such as Warpus, it's viewed in a completely different way, namely identity and belonging. What matters is what group a person belongs to, how they identify themselves, and how other people identify them. From this perspective, to impose an identity upon someone that they do not choose themselves is an extremely offensive thing to do.

Exactly, you said that much better than I ever could.

When someone dies, you don't mess with their legacy. That is something I was taught as a child and something I still strongly believe in.

Messing with their legacy without any permission whatsoever? That's even worse.

 

[downtown]

It's not really signing anybody up for anything. Somebody who was baptized by proxy doesn't go on church membership rolls. It wouldn't say anywhere that they were/are a Mormon. The ordinance would be to give them a choice....remember that throughout the course of human history, very few people had a "choice" to be Christians at all, let alone Mormons.

Your analogy doesn't really work, since digging up a dead mormon and putting cream cheese all over his body is illegal, and obviously more harmful than doing somebody's family tree work for them and using their name.