Ask A Red: The IVth International

[Takhisis]

With a sentence and all? Has it actually been because of being a communist? It's always interesting -and often gruesome- to see how other governments deal with their own political opponents.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Now you got me curious as well. For what? Under what circumstances? How long? Yes I feel if you need to drop such a bomb with relevance to the ideology you propose we deserve some facts

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Another thing: I am this semester attending a seminar about the history of economic theory. In the last session one the two lectures of the seminar said that he thought it strange that Marx still was so central to socialist thought or perhaps rather to people identifying with the "far/extreme left". He explained this by referring to how Marx was supposedly proven wrong but more importantly by referring to how Marx had been followed by way more interesting socialist thinkers who as implied had contributed way more relevant and hence important Marxist and/or socialist economic theory which should have replaced Marx long ago among socialist circles.
What are the thought on this of the participants of this thread?
And as a secondary question: Whom beyond Marx would you recommend as a theoretician on economics or perhaps a crossover of economics and other disciplines like philosophy or even sociology (I myself am inclined to judge Marx as no pure economics - though no surprise there since Marx was anything put a mere economist).

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Please see my thread on why prople who try to change the status quo get the hot lead enema, or whatever.

You could call this "What's a nice person like you doing in a place like this?" Or whatever.

It seems that when people try to do something to better the world around them, they are attacked. This was recently brought to my attention by LoneWolf, who then started posting links to wikipedia :barf: and websites that attack some organization or organizations that "apparently" do good for people, but have some sinister hidden agenda -- organizations LoneWolf alleges I am a member of. Of that I will not comment.

...
I am a 45 year old single male who has devoted 21 years of his life to bettering the lives of others, and in some sinister way, I seek to empower low-income and working people by teaching them valuable job skills (like building trades) and teaching them organizing skills (like how to make payment plans with utility companies to keep the lights on) or by distributing food and clothing and organizing volunteer attorneys to give legal advice, organizing volunteer doctors to give medical care, etc.

I have been a recipient of these benefits, myself, having a close call with one emergency surgery in 1999 and a necessary operation last year at this time -- when I became active on this forum while recovering. I have given far more than I received.

I also happen to be a Red.

I step on a lot of toes in my work -- my organizations have stopped utility rate increases which have cost hundreds of millions of dollars to big business, and we have ensured the survival of home health care workers and their recipients by getting certain states to keep such social services in their budgets -- money that would have gone to special interests. We PUT money in people's pockets by saving them money on vital needs, which they then spend at supportive businesses -- back-scratching.

So, in short, that is why I often get attacked. That is also why I do not name the organizations I work for. These people do not need to know I am a Red -- this is a game forum, for crying out loud.

MLK was attacked for his work. Joe Hill, William Lloyd Garrison, Sojourner Truth, Cesar Chavez, and so on. I am not claiming to be great like these people, just trying to put this into perspective.

I receive no remuneration for what I do, and expect none and I do not preach communism to the masses through my work -- I simply do what I do, and I explain why I have to (i.e., lower wages for low-income workers, fewer available government services). I am not armed, nor do I intend to be armed.

For all of this I have been arrested three times and jailed twice. I have done nothing illegal, these are simply harassment. Pure and simple.

So, if you want to attack me, do it here. It you want to praise me, do it here -- this is the Tavern after all -- or if you are like me and have been attacked for doing nice things or for taking a political position -- or want to show sympathy for any of the positions, then post here.

But leave the poor and low-income working people I work with alone. They do not need anyone else to attack them.

Anyway. Nuff said.

 

[aelf]

Another thing: I am this semester attending a seminar about the history of economic theory. In the last session one the two lectures of the seminar said that he thought it strange that Marx still was so central to socialist thought or perhaps rather to people identifying with the "far/extreme left". He explained this by referring to how Marx was supposedly proven wrong but more importantly by referring to how Marx had been followed by way more interesting socialist thinkers who as implied had contributed way more relevant and hence important Marxist and/or socialist economic theory which should have replaced Marx long ago among socialist circles.
What are the thought on this of the participants of this thread?
And as a secondary question: Whom beyond Marx would you recommend as a theoretician on economics or perhaps a crossover of economics and other disciplines like philosophy or even sociology (I myself am inclined to judge Marx as no pure economics - though no surprise there since Marx was anything put a mere economist).

I think you're saying these things and asking these questions from the common perspective that holds economics to be some kind of scientific discipline, instead of something that is inexact and constantly evolving.

Personally, I'm no ideologue when it comes to economics because there are no universal right answers in the field. I'd say that the extent of Marxist influence on the practice of economics would be in rejecting the control of capital by the few, which is so pervasive in modern capitalist societies, even those that are supposedly less unequal. That's a pretty broad idea that has always been central to Marxism.

 

[Borachio]

If it's all a matter of class struggle, and the ruling class have absolutely no intention of surrendering power willingly, is anything but violent revolution merely perpetuating the status quo? If not actually legitimatizing it?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

If it's all a matter of class struggle, and the ruling class have absolutely no intention of surrendering power willingly, is anything but violent revolution merely perpetuating the status quo? If not actually legitimatizing it?

@Mr Thistle - I know this is the Chamber and all, but my sense of humour hasn't deserted me entirely - were you in jail as a client or a service provider?

No. Violence is only inevitable if we do nothing. Non-violent revolutions used to be few and far between, at least violence on the part of the revolutionaries. Nowadays, the norm is non-violent tactics, as in Bolivia and the BVR.

This does not mean non-confrontational, it means the people stop listening to the class in power and start following the revolutionaries.

Re: my jail time. NYC police do 110 raids a night. They raided my places twice with false pretenses and I am typing on one of the things I got with the settlement.

It was harrassment pure and simple. But we lawyered up and beat them in their own courts.

 

[Takhisis]

Ah, the same thing that Kirchnerism in particular and Peronism in general have done for the past six or seven decades (besides the burning down of 'enemy' offices and locales). We needn't discuss that here.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Ah, the same thing that Kirchnerism in particular and Peronism in general have done for the past six or seven decades (besides the burning down of 'enemy' offices and locales). We needn't discuss that here.

Neither Kirschner nor Peron established a dictatorship of the proletariat like Evo is doing with MAS and what the BRV is doing.

 

[Takhisis]

Of course not, the aprty motto is 'neither Yanks nor marxists, peronists!'.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Of course not, the aprty motto is 'neither Yanks nor marxists, peronists!'.

Well, then, there you have it! A third alternative. Every nation makes its own path to Socialism. I read a couple of your links, Takh, very revealing. I am an American in the sense if "America" is from Point Barrow to the Cape of Storms. Soon, we'll form a mighty Union of Soviet Socialist Republic of the Americas.

Tell luiz he can proceed to lose sleep over that.

 

[Takhisis]

'Its own path to Socialism'… the entire point of Peronism is to reject Marxism (by torturing, burning, killing and bombing its adherents and non-rejctors if necessary) and submit everything to the will of the leader. A statement by a leading senator just today was 'do as the President says or get out'.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

'Its own path to Socialism'… the entire point of Peronism is to reject Marxism (by torturing, burning, killing and bombing its adherents and non-rejctors if necessary) and submit everything to the will of the leader. A statement by a leading senator just today was 'do as the President says or get out'.

See Spielberg's Lincoln. Thaddeus Stevens' statement to his housekeeper says it all -- they won the day through deceit, bluster and patronage.

Proud to be an American.

 

[Takhisis]

Why would I see a capitalist's film about a capitalist president?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Why would I see a capitalist's film about a capitalist president?

Know thy enemy.

 

[Vylinius]

After reading ReindeerThistle's post in Peter Grime's thread I sort of connected the dots on something I thought seemed interesting and thought it would be good to bring as a question to this thread.

What I found interesting was that I've for some time now made the connection that racism was a construct to separate the lower classes in order to allow the upper class to continue to exploit the workers. But, I don't know why ReindeerThistle's post got me thinking on this, but the thought that came to me was what if other social constructs were invented in order to produce the same result? What if religion, cultural norms, and even our system of education are all just constructs that have been made to divide the workers while ultimately benefiting the upper class? I was hoping to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Borachio]

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." - Napoleon Bonaparte

 

[ReindeerThistle]

A WORD FROM THE MARXIST-LENINIST:
@Lopaz: not all religion is a construct of the class in power. Judaism and Christianity were born out of rebellion, as Engels points out in his work Marxism and Christianity.

But for sure, schools, certain religious institutions -- I mean Pat Robertson called for Hugo Chavez' assassination -- TV and radio all work off of and are influenced by the class in power. That is why revolutionaries need to build their own institutions.

However, I am a Catholic and I stand by the belief system that Jesus was s revolutionary. Two of my comrades are clergy -- an Episcopal Minister and a Catholic Priest and they defend that point of view.

I do not intend to abolish religion of any kind under socialism, just curtail oppressive religious practices IF they exhibit themselves.

Hope this helps.

 

[Flying Pig]

Can you explain the idea of surplus value to me, and how it applies to somebody whose job does not have a material product?

 

[aelf]

Your official working hours are 9am to 6pm, but your contract stipulates that you may have to work longer hours from time to time for no additional pay. You wind up working until at least 7pm on most days due to work demands. That's the simplest case.

Another example: After months working in a job, you produce $5000 worth of work for the company every month (businesses do like measuring your impact on revenues, so your contribution in monetary terms is not something that is impossible to find out even now). You ask for a raise, maybe from $3000 to $3500 a month. The company says sure and gives you more responsibilities that require more time and effort as well. That too is extracting surplus value.