Ask A Red: The IVth International

[Takhisis]

Now not only Cuba but China is a democracy?

@Cheezy, specifically: what is the difference you make between

communism, and not "communism," aka, socialism.

(I'm asking for a personal opinion, yes).

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Now not only Cuba but China is a democracy?

I cannot speak for China, but Cuba has many democratic aspects that make it (IMO) more democratic than the United States, in ways that matter.

We Westerners are trained to think that "democracy" means "democratic republic" on the liberal, Anglo-Saxon models. And while no one would argue that this exists in Cuba, there are other democratic elements, which I think matter more than being able to choose which member of the ruling class will screw you over for the next four years. Democracy in the workplace and in the living space are extremely important in day to day life. We in the West live under a daily tyranny of petty despots who rule our jobs and our homes (unless you work for yourself, or own your own home, although even then unless it's paid off your life is still controlled to an extent by your creditors), and democratizing these does more to help people than being able to pick your representative and your political leader; although Cubans get to do the former as well. Their National Assembly is not unlike Western parliaments, and their representatives are democratically elected. And this democracy is more fair than ours: without accumulated private wealth to influence elections, Cuban representatives are true representatives of the people, of a politically literate and organized populace. Half of the assembly comes from local nominations, the other half is nominated by labor unions, student unions, and other such organizations. None of these "I'm not interested in politics it's so boring" lobotomized morons who eschew politics in our society today.

And finally, let's not forget that the Cuban people are armed to the teeth. If they wanted to remove their government, they absolutely could. In fact, the Cuban government actively encourages this thinking. It keeps them honest servants of the public.

@Cheezy, specifically: what is the difference you make between communism and "communism."

(I'm asking for a personal opinion, yes).

Communism would be the stateless, egalitarian state of affairs that we in this thread constantly speak of. "Communism" is the dirty scary word invoked when one wants to rant about how terrible LENIN STALIN MAO were and tell of Polish grandmothers who ate dog food and how there were only two newspapers in the USSR that only ever published panegyrics of party leaders.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

To add to what Cheezy said about Cuba: anyone can run for a seat in local, regional or national election and they do not allow campaign spending -- so anyone of any class can run.

Sign in a Cuban gun shop my friend saw: "In case of invasion, everything in this store is free"

I have already posted extensively on China's democratic process. Cf my earlier posts on this thread as welk as the China Ht US on Human Rights Record thread.

@Gary Childress: a thing to add about "individualism:" tonight, I was at a seminar on Capital and we were discussing something similar: that current trend in understanding is that an individual can have no "ideology," when in fact we all do. Individuals are products of their society, and are subject to what we are taught. As I said, we can tend to grow up thinking we can become rich, but there are fewer and fewer people this happens to.

Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.

 

[Takhisis]

I cannot speak for China, but Cuba has many democratic aspects that make it (IMO) more democratic than the United States, in ways that matter.

We Westerners are trained to think that "democracy" means "democratic republic" on the liberal, Anglo-Saxon models. And while no one would argue that this exists in Cuba, there are other democratic elements, which I think matter more than being able to choose which member of the ruling class will screw you over for the next four years. Democracy in the workplace and in the living space are extremely important in day to day life. We in the West live under a daily tyranny of petty despots who rule our jobs and our homes (unless you work for yourself, or own your own home, although even then unless it's paid off your life is still controlled to an extent by your creditors), and democratizing these does more to help people than being able to pick your representative and your political leader; although Cubans get to do the former as well. Their National Assembly is not unlike Western parliaments, and their representatives are democratically elected. And this democracy is more fair than ours: without accumulated private wealth to influence elections, Cuban representatives are true representatives of the people, of a politically literate and organized populace. Half of the assembly comes from local nominations, the other half is nominated by labor unions, student unions, and other such organizations. None of these "I'm not interested in politics it's so boring" lobotomized morons who eschew politics in our society today.

I think you're overestimating the average Cuban and underestimating the average 'Murican, but by different factors. Yes, the US is a 'democracy' in which, just like in Argentina, you have to be part of the political corporation to be electable (except for a few random token independents that are simply outvoted by a humiliating margin) and the most glorious institution is the self-made entrepreneur, i.e. someone who makes money, by capitalism's rules, at others' expense -and the Army but we don't talk about that 'cos 'Murica.

I still think that democracy without a republic (division of powers, limiting terms in office, equal campaign spending -we agree on this one-, transparency, equal standing in the eyes of the law, etc.) is just the tiranny of a majority -or, usually, of a plurality.

And finally, let's not forget that the Cuban people are armed to the teeth. If they wanted to remove their government, they absolutely could. In fact, the Cuban government actively encourages this thinking. It keeps them honest servants of the public.

You're thinking dangerously close to what the Dommy-like Libertarians do in the Free United Democratic States of Kenyamerica; what weapons to the Cuban populace have?

Communism would be the stateless, egalitarian state of affairs that we in this thread constantly speak of.

We had a discussion on this topic in Ask a Red II or III, so… what's the difference between this and anarchy, other than the way in which it is accomplished?

"Communism" is the dirty scary word invoked when one wants to rant about how terrible LENIN STALIN MAO were and tell of Polish grandmothers who ate dog food and how there were only two newspapers in the USSR that only ever published panegyrics of party leaders.

Well, Stalin and Mao were terrible and did a lot to destroy the credibility of rational left-wingers, of course this doesn't make capitalism any the better IMHO.

Sign in a Cuban gun shop my friend saw: "In case of invasion, everything in this store is free"

That's what we call humour.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Tak, you MUST know some Cubans. I mean real ones, not the Miami mafia Cubans. People elect representatives for them for the National assembly, but that selection is far more egaliarian than the alleged two-party system the US has. When the profit and money motives are taken out of the campaign, you get the people who want to serve, put in by the people who want them to serve.

Ditto for China, although they have political organizations than the Cubans.

RE: That sign in the gun shop -- that is policy, not humour.

Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.

 

[Takhisis]

Why are you implying that I don't know any Cubans?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I think you're overestimating the average Cuban and underestimating the average 'Murican, but by different factors.

I don't.

Yes, the US is a 'democracy' in which, just like in Argentina, you have to be part of the political corporation to be electable (except for a few random token independents that are simply outvoted by a humiliating margin) and the most glorious institution is the self-made entrepreneur, i.e. someone who makes money, by capitalism's rules, at others' expense -and the Army but we don't talk about that 'cos 'Murica.

It's democratic in that the people get to make a choice - it's just not a very fair one.

I still think that democracy without a republic (division of powers, limiting terms in office, equal campaign spending -we agree on this one-, transparency, equal standing in the eyes of the law, etc.) is just the tiranny of a majority -or, usually, of a plurality.

That's nice. No one is talking about democracy without a republic. And for someone who wants to whip out the "you're like Dommy" insult stick, I'll remind you who the biggest whiner about "tyranny of the majority" is on this forum. At any rate, tyranny of the majority is better than tyranny of the minority, which is what we have now.

You're thinking dangerously close to what the Dommy-like Libertarians do in the Free United Democratic States of Kenyamerica; what weapons to the Cuban populace have?

Membership and training in local citizen militias is required of all able-bodied Cubans, man and woman. In addition to privately-owned weapons, militias also have access to the local armories, which they are trained to utilize in the event of invasion. And as I said, part of the social policy is to encourage "citizen accountability" for the conduct of the government. If they don't like it, they can remove it. The Second Amendment's spirit is more alive in Cuba than in the United States!

We had a discussion on this topic in Ask a Red II or III, so… what's the difference between this and anarchy, other than the way in which it is accomplished?

There is none. The difference is how it is accomplished. Ours will succeed, because we understand how man relates materially to one another and his/her society, and our program will resolve this into an anarchy that works. Anarchists, in my opinion, have the cart ahead of the horse. Well-intentioned people, for the most part, but lacking in historical perspective, which will perpetually be their bane.

Well, Stalin and Mao were terrible and did a lot to destroy the credibility of rational left-wingers, of course this doesn't make capitalism any the better IMHO.

The "credibility of left-wingers" (such as always seems to be determined by our enemies...) is not something I am concerned with. Arguments for socialism and communism do not hinge upon the actions of those people. Those are arguments for the history classroom.

That's what we call humour.

No, that's called reality.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Why are you implying that I don't know any Cubans?

I am saying you must. I mean pro-government Cubans.

Sent via mobile.

 

[Tahuti]

How would workplace democracies deal with workplace bullying?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

How would workplace democracies deal with workplace bullying?

How everyone else deals with bullying.

 

[Ajidica]

A few questions:
If Cuba is as wonderful a democracy as you say, then why have the Castros remained in power so long they have essentially mummified themselves and political opposition parties exist more-or-less by governmental whim?

Membership and training in local citizen militias is required of all able-bodied Cubans, man and woman. In addition to privately-owned weapons, militias also have access to the local armories, which they are trained to utilize in the event of invasion. And as I said, part of the social policy is to encourage "citizen accountability" for the conduct of the government. If they don't like it, they can remove it. The Second Amendment's spirit is more alive in Cuba than in the United States!

Are you endorsing mandatory military training for citizens?

 

[Tahuti]

How everyone else deals with bullying.

A superior authority one can report cases to?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

A few questions:
If Cuba is as wonderful a democracy as you say, then why have the Castros remained in power so long they have essentially mummified themselves and political opposition parties exist more-or-less by governmental whim?

Read my post again.

We Westerners are trained to think that "democracy" means "democratic republic" on the liberal, Anglo-Saxon models. And while no one would argue that this exists in Cuba, there are other democratic elements, which I think matter more than being able to choose which member of the ruling class will screw you over for the next four years.

Are you endorsing mandatory military training for citizens?

If the situation requires it, yes. And Cuba's does. The San Domingo example sits very firmly in the minds of Caribbean and Third/Developing World nations who have their [crap] together.

A superior authority one can report cases to?

And you can't imagine that existing without a capitalist?

 

[Ajidica]

Eh, I prefer to get a revolving crop of morons to lead me rather than two mummified Cold War relics but to each their own.



Also, what is it with Communist leaders and mummification? Lenin did it, Stalin did it (but it was done poorly so his body rotted), Mao did it, and I think both of the Kims did it.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Eh, I prefer to get a revolving crop of morons to lead me rather than two mummified Cold War relics but to each their own.

Indeed.

Also, what is it with Communist leaders and mummification? Lenin did it, Stalin did it (but it was done poorly so his body rotted), Mao did it, and I think both of the Kims did it.

Lenin didn't "do" it, he was preserved against his wishes. He wanted to be buried in a simple grave. Everyone else just copied Lenin. You have to remember, though, that these leaders were heroes to their people. Great nation-builders, and leaders who modernized their nations, led them to prosperity and independence, so they would be venerated nonetheless. But then it's not like we've never done that here...

 

[Tahuti]

And you can't imagine that existing without a capitalist?

Then what check-and-balances are compatible with socialism (and communism) to begin with?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Then what check-and-balances are compatible with socialism (and communism) to begin with?

I don't understand the question.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Then what check-and-balances are compatible with socialism (and communism) to begin with?

I don't understand the question.

I do. If we are stuck thinking that the Western European/ American model of "checks and balances" is and was the only way, then I can see why people have a hard time accepting the vox populi as the authority and, ergo, for whom the government is set up. All of the Reds here agree at least on one thing: that the status quo -- the capitalist bourgeois governments are set up by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy -- which is how the wealthy stay that way -- although in fewer and fewer numbers with more and more wealth. Wel, whatvif you had a government set up by the majority. It would be a government suited to the majority. People have a hard time wrapping their heads around that, to be sure, because they don't see and haven't seen the alternative. One of my organizations has a slogan "An organized community is the ultimate court." An educated, enlightened workforce is the ultimate government by extension.


Sent via mobile...

 

[Tahuti]

I don't understand the question.

Well, like superior authorities to prevent bullying, racial discrimination, etc.

 

[caketastydelish]

Cheesy, you've said in the past that you consider the Iranian government to be a democracy. Care to elaborate on why you think this? Personally I think any government where any one person (in this case the ayatollah) has absolute power cannot be a democracy by any definition.