Ask A Red: The IVth International

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What's your estimate on the US having a revolution in the next 100 years, and what circumstances would be more likely to precipitate such a revolution?

I always get in trouble with timeframes. It took 200 years for the US to get the way it is. With all of the contradictions coming to a head -- college student loan debtvis over a $1 trillion, doctors and lawyers are losing tenancy in their professions and US based companies keep coming back to the US for cheap labor.

What we lack are organizers to make that revolution: to do the work of uniting those elements above against their historic antagonists, the bourgeoisie. That is the #1 priority (after meeting basic needs of the people who need them to survive).

If I can get ten more organizers in every arena I am in, we're talking months. Otherwise, a few more years.

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A hundred years ago there was capitalism, in another form but still capitalism. And that has been the case for longer than that. Maybe capitalism changes so that nothing really changes?
 
A hundred years ago there was capitalism, in another form but still capitalism. And that has been the case for longer than that. Maybe capitalism changes so that nothing really changes?

Spoken like a true cynic.
No, this is different. There is a zero-point in sight.

Right.
Point is, primitive communism was around for tens of thousands of years, a slave system for thousands of years and feudalism for hundreds. Socialism is inevitable, but because Capitalism has apparatuses of government to keep it in place, Capitalism can hobble along. Read Chapter 32 of Marx' Capital, Vol I.

You have to remove the bourgeoisie government. Then you can put in Socialism.

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And this is…?

Funny you should use Zizek as a defense, because he agrees with me.

Let's think about this. Finite resources, no system for managing them, most importantly food, but also oil, fresh water, helium, and most other natural resources. Vested power rests with people whose personal interest lies in not changing things. The earth is warming, and we know what the breaking point for that catastrophe is.

Further, capitalism is built upon more industrialized nations imperializing others, which grow more slowly. Parts of the 3rd World are becoming more industrialized, and are doing to less industrial nations what the advanced ones started doing a hundred years ago. Soon, those imperialized nations will be industrialized enough to start doing that to other still less industrial nations, so on and so forth, until...what? What will happen when there's no one left to imperialize? The system is only maintained by these new markets, it can only go on until all the markets are grown. After that it has nothing to maintain itself.

And finally, the issues that play into the present economic crisis: debts, investment bubbles, and long-term instability. Our economies haven't meaningfully increased in more than a decade, 2008's collapse showed us that. How much longer will this "magic money" from the stock market be able to fuel capital's debts to itself? Some major economists predict this collapse within the next year, because nothing meaningful has been done about it.
 
Oh yes, I agree with the principles of that analysis, but when will this collapse happen?

Also, I'm not using Žižek as an attack or defense, as I don't believe in 'winning' threads. I was being slightly humoury.
 
Oh yes, I agree with the principles of that analysis, but when will this collapse happen?
It won't "happen," per se. The bourgeoisie keep coming up with tactics to keep it hobbling along. We, the organizers of the revolution, have to collectivize the proletariat and its allies against the bourgeoisie. It is not THEIR strength that keeps the bourgeoisie in power, but the weakness of the revolutionary movement. That's why I am full time. If there were an easier way, I'd do it.

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This feels like a thorough analysis of present-day Unitedstatesian Marxist thought but it's worth it.

We have the bourgeoisie, the proletariat… and its 'allies'. Who are the proletariat's allies? How are they defined in Marx's terms?
 
This feels like a thorough analysis of present-day Unitedstatesian Marxist thought but it's worth it.

We have the bourgeoisie, the proletariat… and its 'allies'. Who are the proletariat's allies? How are they defined in Marx's terms?

The "allies" of the proletariat I speak of are manifold and fluid. Essentially, any class of people who are losinh, while the international bourgeoisie gain. Attorneys and doctors losing tenancy in their profession, anyone with a debt, any industry or business who depends on a domestic market -- up to and including members of the national bourgeoisie (my family until a few years ago). In Marxian terms, allies of the proletariat are "proletarianized" members of any class who realize they have more in common with the working class than the ruling class.

See Amilcar Cabral's "National Liberation and Social Structure" for more on this. I believe it's available on the Marxist Internet Archive.

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(I have to be honest, it still astonishes me that, in 2013, so many leftists continue to expect me to give a damn what shopkeepers think.)
 
(I have to be honest, it still astonishes me that, in 2013, so many leftists continue to expect me to give a damn what shopkeepers think.)

Well, shopkeepers donate, volunteer, and become Reds. So do attorneys, doctors, housewives and students. It still amazes me how many leftists mislocate the enemy. There are two classes who can wield power -- if you are not the bourgeoisie, your historic self-interest lies with the proletariat. It does not take much convincing to realize that your source of income are workers, and the people sucking you dry are the ruling class. Hell, I recruited my hairdresser as a Red, as well as the guy at whose family restaurant I used to buy lunch.

If you do not organize them, the other side will. Nobody wrote me off -- the spoiled little debt-free college type-A athlete who never had to work a day in his life. Think of where we'd be if nobody took that PhD son-of-a-converted protestant German lawyer seriously. We choose our sides. We are free people. It beats having them call the cops on you.

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very interesting, and I agree and was thinking of this question sometimes which is what to do about the masses of society who aren't in the "workering" class. Obviously you can divide where Marx divides but the thing is that the amount of workers who have agency in the system is over 20%, and until recently was growing pretty linearly. It only stopped when we, by choice and bad luxury, stopped being progressive (and not particularly leftist). This is why "the revolution" by "the workers" (what about self-indulgent artists who don't want to be workers, even at the shorter, fairer workweek times) "against the bourgeoisie" never seemed like the convincing end game means. It seemed like as long as you were making any progress, you were achieving the same end goals of universal welfare and freedom and dignity. Why can't the gentler forces of history overpower the concentrated forces of a particular class, many of whom aren't even actively aware they are trying to maintain any status quo?
 
Are left-wing libertarians marxists?
 
very interesting, and I agree and was thinking of this question sometimes which is, what to do about the masses of society who aren't in the "workering" class. Obviously you can divide where Marx divides but the thing is that the amount of workers who have agency in the system is over 20%, and until recently was growing pretty linearly. It only stopped when we, by choice and bad luxury, stopped being progressive (and not particularly leftist). This is why "the revolution" by "the workers" (what about self-indulgent artists who don't want to be workers, even at the shorter, fairer workweek times) "against the bourgeoisie" never seemed like the convincing end game means. It seemed like as long as you were making any progress, you were achieving the same end goals of universal welfare and freedom and dignity. Why can't the gentler forces of history overpower the concentrated forces of a particular class, many of whom aren't even actively aware they are trying to maintain any status quo?

I don't understand what you mean by "workers who have agency in the system."

Let's be clear: progressivism has been driven by the pressure of the working class itself. It would not exist without the working class applying pressure to better their lot. Socialists merely being the political organization of one form of that pressure application, as we give class struggle a more concrete direction by showing the road map to the working class.

These are the forces that have pushed things so far already. But why have they been able to be pushed, without the need for violent revolution to forcibly install them? The answer is two-fold. First, they have not required complete destruction of the oppressing class, but they have required a great deal of violence. A peaceful strike is violence against the system. Second, these changes, while causing increasing inconvenience for the ruling class, have not threatened the fundamentals of their power: private property and class dictatorship. By giving ground to progressives, they alleviated the immediate pressure toward revolution (such as happened in Russia, where the ruling order was implacably intransigent, and allowed things to boil over) and consolidated their power with the new way of doing things. Capital is nothing if not adaptable. But the goal of the socialist movement is socialism, and given adequate guidance, the working class will take itself there. However, this change of events is not merely an inconvenience for the capitalist, to which he must now adapt: it is a game-changer, because it threatens the base of his power and privilege. He will not allow this to be asked away from him, and he will fight tooth and nail to maintain it. Witness the stalwart resistance of the counter-revolution in France, in Russia, in China, in Mexico, and here in the United States, during our revolution: do you still think a kindler, gentler revolution will accomplish anything of meaning?

And if you still don't believe me, read The Iron Heel.

How would you describe the nature of this molding?

By whom?

Are left-wing libertarians marxists?

If they use Marxist historical analysis, then they are.
 
Cheesy, you've said in the past that you consider the Iranian government to be a democracy. Care to elaborate on why you think this? Personally I think any government where any one person (in this case the ayatollah) has absolute power cannot be a democracy by any definition.

Would Cheezy, or any other reds mind answering this?
 
Would Cheezy, or any other reds mind answering this?

I fail to see its relevance to this thread.

How would you describe the interactions (or whatever terms seem appropriate) that lead to society molding the people within? (If the question needs another rephrase, what causes problems with my first question in this post?)

Education, culture, and empirical observation and reaffirmation of prejudices.
 
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