Barbie Movie Discussion (Spoilers)

[Zardnaar]

ok so I could dig down and go line by line on this, but I kind of feel like that won’t really move anything, so instead let’s try this:

Let’s say for the sake of argument, that woke is as defined here: a piece of media in which a character’s identity is aggressively shoehorned into their plot or characterization, such that it detracts from telling a good story or more nuanced complex characters.

If this same scenario happened in a movie, let’s say Rey or whomever, who is an arch Mary Sue - preternaturally gifted at everything she does, always praised, rah rah girl power, whatever - is instead played by a man. So the media is all about how much of a badass he is, rah rah masculinity is a superpower, whatever. Like a dudes rock movie. But not good, really over the top, very bland, the characters just yell about how much they need to protect their bros and their homes all day or whatever.

Would this white dudes rock movie be considered woke media?

Oh you just described Wesley Crusher

 

[aelf]

Well then why are any of us here? Why are we discussing this even? Why do we discuss anything on this forum? Politics, Economy, the Ukraine War? Why bother if it's irrelevant when "we" discuss it here among ourselves?

I mean, is this comment really necessary?

You don't see people get called out when discussing the Ukraine war and keep bringing up red herrings that basically work to obscure Russian crimes (and sometimes Ukrainian crimes)?

I don't think discussions here tend to ignore reality and go off on its own without reference to it.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

*sigh* this is kinda what I meant by my post above. I know we are egregiously off-topic for this this thread (which involves a discussion I find quite worthwhile & interesting, so maybe it could be split out & allowed to continue? Red Diamond, maybe?), but now we have all this. Not saying I agree or disagree with any of the above, but, well, it's a Barbie thread & we have been dangerously teetering on the edge for a while now I think. Let's not tip it over the edge, maybe?

Conversation drift happens.

And I did address a bunch of Barbie-related posts AND post pictures of the earlier ones I had, to counter the "German hooker" crack.

 

[Gorbles]

It doesn’t encapsulates an aggressive push for diversity, equity, inclusion

What defines an "aggressive" push? Who is making this "aggressive" push?

I really recommend spending some actual time around leftists and progressives. Hollywood isn't listening to them. That's the whole point about tokenism. I offered a PM convo some time back r.e. resources and reading you might benefit from or even enjoy - you haven't taken me up on it yet.

I know it's a very right-wing thing to claim that Hollywood is being lead by the "wokerati" that's "ruining modern film", and I'm being careful to say here: I do not think this is your position. But we need to understand the context that leads you to claim these "aggressive" things are happening in the first place.

 

[Narz]

it would be nice to have that response actually addressed, even picked apart, from the people who asked the question.

It would be.

The rest of your sentence appears to be missing.

I don't think it's meant to be actual communication, it's like a tagwhistle or something.

 

[Gorbles]

The last time I picked a response apart, I was accused of nitpicking

 

[Narz]

Like a dudes rock movie. But not good, really over the top, very bland, the characters just yell about how much they need to protect their bros and their homes all day or whatever.

Would this white dudes rock movie be considered woke media?

This movie wouldn't be made. A dude only rocks if he achieves something, can't just yell & posture, that's for twitter not the movies.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think I might be in love with this thread

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It would be.

I don't think it's meant to be actual communication, it's like a tagwhistle or something.

So, sexist?

I might have thought CFCOT would move beyond that, but apparently not.

I still haven't forgotten the thread where I offered an opinion about Muslim swimwear for women and was told to "mind your own business."

 

[Lexicus]

This movie wouldn't be made.

Not only would this movie be made, it has been made probably hundreds of times. Have you ever heard of Birth of a Nation?

So, sexist?

I might have thought CFCOT would move beyond that, but apparently not.

It's making fun of sexism

 

[Narz]

Not only would this movie be made, it has been made probably hundreds of times.

Where men are celebrated for no reason w no action or character arc? I haven't ever of any. I don't think anyone would watch The Househusbands of Beverly Hills.

Maybe Big Lebowski could be in that category, can't think of any others.

Have you ever heard of Birth of a Nation?

Not until now no. Why?

 

[Lexicus]

Not until now no. Why?

Lmao, ok

 

[Lexicus]

@RobAnybody what's your favorite action movie

 

[Lexicus]

I don't think anyone would watch The Househusbands of Beverly Hills.

Sorry I missed this on the first pass but....are you implying that Real Housewives is woke?

 

[Narz]

Sorry I missed this on the first pass but....are you implying that Real Housewives is woke?

I leave this woke argument to others. I meant that no one would watch a movie about men who don't accomplish anything barring a few stoner comedy movies.

Actually one non-traditional movie I rewatched recently that stood out was White Men Can't Jump (the original) where a man having fun and living his life without endenturing himself to others is seen as enough.

Of course to be able to do this and get away w it in society requires a lot of skill and dedication (tho likely this is true in almost any modern society)

Spoiler :

Notably because the hero (woody haralson) chooses his passion (a non-productive one in the capitalist societal sense) over the demands of his girl (he walks away from his relationship at the end rather than the usual girl chasing you see in movies)

Even in most comedies it seems that the female lead is often used to push the male lead into being more serious, to stop screwing around and having fun and become a proper citizen in order to win her love.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Honestly? Probably not. At least it wouldn't get labelled that way. That's fair.

But it would receive the same criticism for poor story-telling. I think the actual issues though, in relation to this discussion, are 1) that never happens to a boy character, 2) the only reason the "Rey effect" happened is because: girls can no longer struggle, or need a mentor, or need help from anyone, much less a man, so Rey is a bit unique in that aspect, a pioneer even, 3) any criticism of the actual Rey gets dismissed as sexism.

I’m sort of at my wits end when explaining and giving a definition to the term woke and it’s derivatives. Only to be given bad faith responses and enough strawmen to keep me warm for the winter from leftists and/or progressives since the definition given goes against their narrative.


I’d wouldn’t be labeled as woke garbage. Yet it would still revive the same criticism of poor writing (In this case, the character in question would be a Marty Stu, same concept for Mary Sue but applied to male characters) and comparisons to a Rambo movie.

Unfortunately, as Rob pointed out, any criticisms on Rey ultimately gets dismissed as sexism.

I’m going to respond to you together since you said pretty similar things, namely, that it wouldn’t be woke, but it would still be a bad movie.

So part 2 to this question is what has changed between the original white girlboss movie and the hypothetical white dudes rock movie to make it go from “bad because it’s woke” to “bad because it’s [the writing, the plot, the characters, etc.] bad? Like something changed, so what is it?

This movie wouldn't be made. A dude only rocks if he achieves something, can't just yell & posture, that's for twitter not the movies.

I never said anything about achievement in my hypothetical. According to the definition others have provided, the issue is with the characters being flat and 1-dimensional, or the plot being too predictable or simplistic. Nothing about characters achieving or not achieving things in the movie, though it is really funny that in your mind the genderswap of girlboss is male layabout

When I was hashing out what a white dudes rock movie I initially had in mind like Master and Commander or Fast & the Furious, but the “bad” version would be like 300.

 

[Narz]

When I was hashing out what a white dudes rock... Fast & the Furious,

Vin Disel isn't so white. And there's some Asian gang as well. And when I think of those movies mentioned are about epic adventures not necessarily about the characters and their glorification. Sea adventure, fast cars, war are epic (well I don't care much about cars but evidently audiences seem to).

 

[Farm Boy]

Fast and Furious(at least the first one) has pretty terrible car technobabble in it. It's sort of jarring to put it next to Master and Commander, which seems to have gotten much of the technical and historical stuff close to the bone.

 

[RobAnybody]

@RobAnybody what's your favorite action movie

Does Lord of the Rings count? Fellowship if I need to narrow it down. Some of my favorites that I rewatch frequently are Watchmen &, though I cannot recommend this movie without forever damaging my credibility to ever recommend movies, Sucker Punch. Oddly enough, both directed by Zack Snyder, although I don't consider myself a Snyder fan in particular & was not a fan of "the Snyder-verse" for the most part. I don't really care about who directs a film. Among Marvel movies, Infinity War & Civil War. On the DC side, oddly enough Aquaman (I try to avoid thinking too much about Amber Heard when I'm watching it because I like Mera so much).

Also The Princess Bride would be up there. Others that come to mind without putting a lot of thought into it are Big Trouble in Little China, Labyrinth, & Serenity (the Firefly movie). Also Puss in Boots: The Last Wish if that counts. I liked the recent Dungeons & Dragons movie. More, just off the top of my head as I type this: The Fifth Element, Demolition Man, Terminator 2, Kick-Ass. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones, but that's a good start.

What are yours?

So part 2 to this question is what has changed between the original white girlboss movie and the hypothetical white dudes rock movie to make it go from “bad because it’s woke” to “bad because it’s [the writing, the plot, the characters, etc.] bad? Like something changed, so what is it?

I don't use the term "woke" so I can't really answer that. I have given descriptions of what I think are recent trends & tropes in movies/shows that have contributed to an increase in poor story-telling, but what you described falls into that "poor story-telling" category no matter the identity of the main hero. I'm simply not interested in defending that term. No offense meant by not technically answering your question - I'm not trying to avoid it, just that these discussions of that term sometimes also overlap a larger discussion I do find interesting. But the term itself I find useless.

 

[choxorn]

I'm simply not interested in defending that term.

But.... like.... you've been defending it, or been defending other people's use of it, for like 5 pages of this thread now