Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

[Sofista]

I've given up. I don't think there will ever be a Brexit. We're stuck with the Farages and Johnsons and Davises screaming and throwing poo in the EU forever...

There should be another referendum: an EU-wide one! (Uk included, of course, since they're in for the time foreseeable).

I'd posit the question as something like: "Should the UK and EU be given six months TOPS to reach an agreement regarding brexit, after that, brexit happens and trade between parties shall fall under WTO rules (a status open to renegotiation after then)?".

Just like that. Democracy at work. Nice and easy.

 

[Takhisis]

The crown already lost entire continents.

Nah, they have a hold on Europe (Gibraltar), another on Asia/Africa (the Chagos islands), another in the Americas (Falklands) and also one in Ireland.
Plus all those domains who pretend they are former colonies, like Canada, Australia, the USA, New Zealand, etc.

 

[AmazonQueen]

The crown already lost entire continents. N. Ireland is rather poor anyway.

Well the UK government did, the crown still has a fair bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_headed_by_Elizabeth_II

 

[Hrothbern]

Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson got sacked because of the Huawei leak.
Good riddance

The prime minister has this evening asked Gavin Williamson to leave the government, having lost confidence in his ability to serve in the role of defence secretary and as a member of her cabinet.
The prime minister’s decision has been informed by his conduct surrounding an investigation into the circumstances of the unauthorised disclosure of information from a meeting of the National Security Council.
The prime minister thanks all members of the National Security Council for their full cooperation and candour during the investigation and considers the matter closed.

There is no precedent in modern times for a cabinet minister being sacked as a result of a leak inquiry.
In fact, it is hard to think of a precedent for any leak inquiry actually reaching a conclusion.
Hugh Dalton did resign as chancellor in 1947 after giving information about his budget to an evening paper lobby journalist shortly before he delivered it. A short paragraph got published before the speech had been delivered, and he resigned. But there was no great mystery at the time about what had happened, and Dalton never denied being responsible - unlike Williamson, who issued a statement last week denying he had given the Huawei story to the Daily Telegraph.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-is-preparing-for-deal-with-labour-live-news

 

[AmazonQueen]

Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson got sacked because of the Huawei leak.
Good riddance

Since he was neither loyal or competent, just self-important, thats not surprising.
At least thats one person who won't be in the running to replace May.

 

[Hrothbern]

Since he was neither loyal or competent, just self-important, thats not surprising.
At least thats one person who won't be in the running to replace May.

I must say that I am tempted to describe most self-proclaimed successors of May with that description

 

[Samson]

Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson got sacked because of the Huawei leak.
Good riddance

This does mean he did it, doesn't it? That meeting is covered by the Official Secrets Act, so legal charges should be on the way.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Another Remainer bites the dust:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Williamson

Williamson supported the United Kingdom's remain campaign during the 2016 EU membership referendum.

No doubt, tomorrow it may be a Leaver's turn?

 

[Hrothbern]

Another Remainer bites the dust:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Williamson



No doubt, tomorrow it may be a Leaver's turn?

How about a born-gain Brexiteer ?

I would call him a opportunist.
A kind of weathercock blown away because to light for anyrthing

 

[EnglishEdward]

How about a born-gain Brexiteer ?

I would call him a opportunist.
A kind of weathercock blown away because to light for anyrthing

I prefer the terms fake Brexiter or pretend Brexiter.

Brexit isn't a religion. If anything it is more akin to agnosticism or atheism, it is a cautious
repudiation of belief in the promised European Union and/or World Government utopias.

 

[Arakhor]

You seem much more attached to the holy grail of Brexit than most, Edward. I doubt there's anything cautious about your repudiation.

 

[Hrothbern]

This does mean he did it, doesn't it? That meeting is covered by the Official Secrets Act, so legal charges should be on the way.

I understand that Williamson denies he leaked and that May considers the case closed with sacking him.

In a letter to May, posted on his Twitter account Wednesday, Williamson said he is “sorry that you feel recent leaks from the National Security Council originated in my Department. I emphatically believe this was not the case. I strenuously deny that I was in any way involved in this leak and I am confident that a thorough and formal inquiry would have vindicated my position.”
He added that May had offered him the option of resigning, but he declined because this would have implied that he or his staff members were responsible and “this was not the case.”
Downing Street said it considers the matter closed, while opposition MPs said the police should now be called in to investigate.
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-defense-secretary-gavin-williamson-sacked-over-huawei-leak/

There could also be more the case than just this Huawei 5G issue.

Security correspondent Frank Gardner said the BBC had been told "more than one concerning issue" had been uncovered regarding Mr Williamson during the leak inquiry and not just the Huawei conversation.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48126974

All a bit nebulous.

A normal court case based on legal charges is a healthy component of a rule of law based democracy.
(Though IDK how that goes in the UK when sensitive national security info would have to be disclosed. I would guess the UK has some closed doors procedure for that)




EDIT:
ohh... I think this is interesting news:
(not related to that Williamson affair)

LONDON (Reuters) - Prime Minister Theresa May said on Wednesday she still believed it was possible to reach a deal on the second phase of Brexit negotiations by the current deadline of Dec. 31 2020.
Asked whether she would be seeking an extension to the so-called transition period, she told a committee of lawmakers: “It is possible to achieve it by the end of December 2020, the withdrawal agreement has within it the possibility of an extension of that implementation period.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...ions-still-possible-by-end-2020-idUSKCN1S747S

It can have several purposes and implications that May goes NOW public with these statements.
Have to think that through.

 

[AmazonQueen]

A normal court case based on legal charges is a healthy component of a rule of law based democracy.
(Though IDK how that goes in the UK when sensitive national security info would have to be disclosed. I would guess the UK has some closed doors procedure for that)

Can't recall how it was handled in the Tisdall and Ponting cases but I think press and public can be excluded from part of proceedings when national security is involved. Ofc Tisdall and Ponting were civil servants. If it was a civil servant who was responsible for the leak charges would come quickly.

 

[Kyriakos]

[May stuff]

End of December? Wasn't this latest charade supposed to be up to late October?
Pretend & extend.

 

[ori]

End of December? Wasn't this latest charade supposed to be up to late October?
Pretend & extend.

different dates - the current end date on Halloween is for the exit treaty to be ratified, if that ever happens that treaty envisions a comprehensive (trade and other) agreement by December 2020 (which of course will also not happen).

 

[Hrothbern]

Can't recall how it was handled in the Tisdall and Ponting cases but I think press and public can be excluded from part of proceedings when national security is involved. Ofc Tisdall and Ponting were civil servants. If it was a civil servant who was responsible for the leak charges would come quickly.

Ok
And now it is about a Secretary of Defense, with lots of high level confidential info and influence... hm.

Also... as I already said: I think that a prosecution and a court case is a healthy element of a rule of law democracy !

What if Williamson was not the source of the leak and that 11 minute telephone call with the Daily Telegraph that day was about other topics ?
We end up in that case with a Williamson generating a lot of noise, MPs asking for that prosecution, a nasty smell hanging around for a long time... and a Daily Telegraph that can pressure its real source in much more confidentialities.... and a Daily Telegraph that can launch at any convenient moment an explosion at Theresa May (by opaque bits of info streams to various people).

different dates - the current end date on Halloween is for the exit treaty to be ratified, if that ever happens that treaty envisions a comprehensive (trade and other) agreement by December 2020 (which of course will also not happen).

yes
Unless a deal is made with Corbyn before the EU elections May 23-26, with as last ditch before the installation of the MEPs on July 1 (the first EU Parliament session of the new MEPs is July 2)....
unless that deal is made in that "hurry"... my guess is also that the whole process is going to take much longer, and could indeed well exceed 2019 October 31
And yes.... even if there would be a deal before December 2020....
That deal whether FTA or Customs Union, could very well need time to negotiate details on trade (sectoral Customs Union & Single Market access elements) to allow for a smoother transition to Brexit.
And all that time, just like the last 3 years, the UK would still be within the EU trade privileges. And only outside the status of a (formally entitled) voting EU member AFTER that Withdrawal agreement is agreed and signed by the UK.

Kyr... it could very well be, as we say in Dutch, "een gebed zonder einde" (a prayer without an end).

I think that one of the reasons why May said it publicly (that long scenario) was to make clear to everyone, that she would be prepared to take the damage on the Tory party and by that willingness threaten Corbyn with the damage on the Labour party from its Remainers divide.
There is now a timing difference. The Tory party damage is a front load (with Farrage) and the Labour party damage only happens to a bigger degree if Corbyn can no longer sit on the fence.

Whether it is negotiating bluff to get that deal before July 2, or just another desperate gamble ? Time will learn.

The battle between the Tories and Labour, the relative self preservation of their own party, is I think still the most fundamental priority of both May as Corbyn.
(not Brexit)

 

[AmazonQueen]

Ok
And now it is about a Secretary of Defense, with lots of high level confidential info and influence... hm.

Also... as I already said: I think that a prosecution and a court case is a healthy element of a rule of law democracy !

What if Williamson was not the source of the leak and that 11 minute telephone call with the Daily Telegraph that day was about other topics ?
We end up in that case with a Williamson generating a lot of noise, MPs asking for that prosecution, a nasty smell hanging around for a long time... and a Daily Telegraph that can pressure its real source in much more confidentialities.... and a Daily Telegraph that can launch at any convenient moment an explosion at Theresa May (by opaque bits of info streams to various people).

In the case of Sarah Tisdall the Guardian was forced to reveal its information (photocopied documents), which led to her being caught, even though the government admitted the information was not damaging.
Its argument was that someone prepared to leak info might leak damaging info in the future.

 

[EnglishEdward]

You seem much more attached to the holy grail of Brexit than most, Edward. I doubt there's anything cautious about your repudiation.

Desiring not to be part of a political union is not in itself an end objective.

...envisions a comprehensive (trade and other) agreement by December 2020 (which of course will also not happen).

Exactly.

Which is why many of us vote Leavers believe it is best for the UK to simply
Leave, see what actually happens and then respond to each issue as it arises.


Regarding Huawei, the decision would have had to be announced to the
USA, Chinese and the multi-national telecoms companies involved;
so the leak of that is not in itself of any significance importance.

However the Cabinet Office really does not like having its classified
documents disclosed, whether by carelessness or intention, and likely feels
it must take action to deter future leakage of more important documents.

 

[Hrothbern]

And meanwhile...

Bombardier is to sell its aerostructures business in Belfast, the company has announced.
A statement by the Canadian manufacturing giant confirmed rumours which had been circulating at the plant in Northern Ireland.
A statement issued in Montreal said: “As the company moves to optimise its global manufacturing footprint, Bombardier will pursue the divestiture of the Belfast and Morocco aerostructures businesses. These are great businesses with tremendous capabilities.”

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/national-news/17613660.bombardier-to-sell-belfast-site/

Not that it was really a surprise this could happen
Many articles the past years already indicated that Bombardier was not happy about the future perspectives in NI. (with a theological DUP not caring about such inconvenient realities as the economy)

Perhaps this artice below of March was the last ditch effort of Bombardier to prevent it... perhaps that last ditch to the DUP was only done to get the excuse to do it anyway.

Bombardier has not denied reports it put pressure on the DUP to back Theresa May's Brexit deal.
The Financial Times reports the aircraft manufacturer - which employs thousands in Northern Ireland - has warned of "serious consequences" of a no-deal exit.
Responding to the claims, the company said: "We continue to engage with stakeholders across government. We will not comment on any specific engagement.”
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...to-back-mays-brexit-deal-report-37884377.html

Which is why many of us vote Leavers believe it is best for the UK to simply
Leave, see what actually happens and then respond to each issue as it arises.

Besides that perhaps 10% probability on a no-deal by accident
I think it is already water under the bridge by now to believe in a WTO-FTA Brexit.

 

[Hrothbern]

In the case of Sarah Tisdall the Guardian was forced to reveal its information (photocopied documents), which led to her being caught, even though the government admitted the information was not damaging.
Its argument was that someone prepared to leak info might leak damaging info in the future.

exactly the right argument for a responsible government !
you do not want to have avoidable loose ends that pose a risk.