1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Brexit Thread VI - The Knockout Phase ?!?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Mar 22, 2019.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    I think that this is an inevitable consequence of the
    various European Union Procurement Regulations.

    Any party that fails to get a government contract can very easily
    threaten to sue, or actually sue, the government body concerned.
     
    Silurian likes this.
  2. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Do these (vocal Brexit) Ministers and Secretaries of State that leak to a newspaper info that is absolutely not fit to be leaked (like this Huawei 5G) realise that they can be all too easily forced by that same newspaper to supply more confidential information of that confidentiality nature ?
    This is really kindergarten level.

    EDIT
    One of the best things that needs to happen for the future UK is to remove that whole bunch from the public stage. Attack and destroy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
    Silurian likes this.
  3. Takhisis

    Takhisis is it fall yet

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    43,853
    Location:
    up yours!
    I totally have the title for whenever we have our next thread (2754.82 posts, plus or minus a hundred?).
    You're not in the EU anyway. ;)
     
    Kyriakos likes this.
  4. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    18,431
    Location:
    Sydney
    Clearly the EU fault
    Brexit so you can do NO bid contracts, which violated the laws that UK government pass for public bidding of contracts

    Also its the EU fault for awarding a Pizza restaurant a 33 Mil ferry contract, HOW DARE the EU force the UK to have NO bid contracts /s

     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  5. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    Yes, it is the European Union's fault.

    The EC Procurement Regulations were very well intentioned with the commendable aim of making government
    contracts open to bidders throughout the EU, and including avoiding single tender renewal of existing contracts.

    Problem was that it was part effective, there were occasons of large corporate incumbents not winning recompetitions.

    So they lobbied the EU to introduce a Remedies Directive to give them the right to sue the relevant government body.

    The legal profession also saw a great opportunity to milk the government service cow here.

    This went beyond setting aside a contract award as invalid and recovering bid costs, to claiming all the profit they might have made.

    The result is that if a government body awards a contract for perhaps £10 million without going through the full EU timetable,
    an unlimited number of companies can each claim £10 million each etc as damages. This is of course the salvation of a failed
    bid teams' prospects, perhaps delaying or even preventing them from being rightsized out; and a fishing lawyer's charter
    to make money out of the tax payer. Cynics say such green-mail is more profitable than winning the contract itself.
    And there is a trick here, an incumbent that loses can, by challenging an award to another company, effectively suspend such
    award for perhaps a year, thereby getting another year's revenue from the government body, and giving it the opportunity.
    to, in the best tradtions of modern capitalism, eliminate the competition, by bullying and/or buying out the new entrant company.

    One of the adverse distorting consequences of such EU sourced law is that the undertaking of public procurements
    tends to be excessively constrained by the imperative of not being held for ransom by such litigants and that is often
    given precedence over whethe the goods or services are fit for purpose, of good quality or are innovatively provided.
    This also helps stuffs new entrant companies prospects of winning government business, in favour of large incumbents.

    I would assume that the go ahead to make arangements was not given until Theresa May had lost her vote in December 2018.
    This would not have left enough time to run the full EU compliant procurement process to obtain ferrying services in April 2019.
    In such circumstances, the Transport ministry may have decided the 29 March 2019 deadline was the more important imperative.


    The UK Treasury's established policy was to obtain value for money by competitive tender on all significant contracts and that preceded
    the introduction of EC/EU regulations, and it would be a misleading implication to regard the ferry contracts as no bid contracts.

    The UK law here is merely the UK implementaion of the EU Procurement Regulations as required by treaty.


    Is that what you are stating?

    It is certainly not what I have said.
     
  6. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam

    The procedural minimum time needed by EU rules is normally 50 days (45 with better access to info, 40 when all transactions electronic)
    or 29 days when a pre-announcement has been made 52 days before the announcement (nut no longer than a year ago)
    or 10 days as fast track when the department can demonstrate that the time urgency was not laziness or abuse, but caused by circumstances outside their responsibility.

    Normally these purchase procedure time delays are no issue at all for government departments because they plan activities according to a by a government agreed budget plans.
    And for political hot potato topics I expect civil servants to be prepared for the main likely outcomes of the political decision.
    And also: before a political decision is taken, politicians want a price tag on their decisions. => meaning that civil servants have already in their drawers documents worked out with specifications and mostly gathered some non-binding quotes/price indications.

    Now
    That a no-deal cliff edge would cause the risk on secured delivery of medicins, would cause public uncertainty, etc can hardly be an unexpected surprise.
    The Minister of Transport Chris Failing could have used the 29 pre-announcement procedure with ease.

    Ohhhh .... that would have been fear-mongering... or giving in to Rees-Mogg.... or "messaging" some wrong political "message"...... he could ofc not do that.....
    Ohhhh.... and when Theresa May finally decided that it should be done.... it was ofc to be done immediately !!!
    Heaven forbid that some regulations stand in the way of the divine principle of "taking back control" in the most instant way possible.... so instant that that ferry company still sold pizza's in its general terms.

    I call it all amateur behaviour
    having nothing to do with the minor inconvenience of some procedures that never bite a normally planned government.
    Ohhhh.... this whole Brexit is the no-planB referendum threat, the no-planB referendum, the no-plan Leave victory "what now" result, the no-planArt50 triggering, the no-plan shambles of the May government, the no-plan positions of Westminster parties.

    I think this penalty summarises greatly the no-plan taking back control of hype of the moment, the no-plan let's have a change hype. And Chris Failing the perfect personification of the level of implementation of such hypes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
    Silurian likes this.
  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,777
    Location:
    the relative oasis of CFC
    We're in, in every way that matters, except for the customs union and voting rights. :undecide:

    I'm one of those apparent unicorns who politically feel more European than Norwegian. :D
     
  8. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    This is one of the most basic questions !

    WHO is really taking back control in the UK ?
    (or trying to)
     
  9. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,584
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Don't you see her as full of youth? She dances.
     
  10. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    18,431
    Location:
    Sydney
    Is there any screw up by the UK government in this entire mess that ISNT the EU fault ?
    Maybe elect more Chris Graylines into UK government /s
    Even if Eurotunnel won the courtcase, all the UK government would be forced to do is scrap the no bid contracts and then simply retender them again. The UK government decided to give Eurotunnel 33 Mil instead.

     
  11. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    Well, the way I see it, this is the consequence of having a Remain voting Prime Minister and a Remain voting Chancellor.

    Amongst other things, one understands that Theresa May was told by Martin Barnier and/or his lot that if she prepared
    for No Deal, it would demonstate that the UK was approaching the negotiations in bad faith; and she fell for that bluff.

    And Phil Hammond saw no reason to approve significant expenditure on No Deal preparations because Theresa May said there'd be a deal.

    The approval for significant expenditure for ND only came through after the so called WA was voted down in December and the cabinet rebelled.


    But if it'd been Boris Johnson as PM, with Michael Gove as Chancellor, and that'd happened, yes you could blame Brexiters.


    Competitive tendering was undertaken in the UK prior to the introduction of european procurement regulations.
     
  12. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    Yes, that is suspicious. And I wonder if some civil servant, consultant or minister anticipated a share of that as a backhander.
     
  13. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    That may also be true.

    When decisions like that are made there is often a chain of people involved and the individuals may have separate motives.

    My point remains that enabling each and every unsuccessful bidder or non bidder to sue for lost profits, as currently specified by cascaded EU law, is unwise.

    In general, in such circumstances, public authority liability ought to be limited to paying otherwise irrecoverable bid costs.
     
  14. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    4,989
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    May's line from the very start was "better a no-deal than a bad deal".
    Nothing stopped her from preparing for a no-deal related to the EU.
    But... what did stop her was that she did not want the UK people seeing her taking preparations for the issues of a no-deal
    after all... the main message of the Brexiteers was that "Brexit would be easy"

     
  15. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,378
    Location:
    England
    I have two views on this:

    Firstly it may have been a case of burning her boats on getting a Deal.

    Secondly she should have separately delegated the (i) negotiations with the EU and (ii) of preparing for No Deal,
    and impartially sat above those processes. But by getting involved she became personally emotionally involved
    and she may well have considered that merely preparing for her negotiation failure was a form of giving up.

    In this respect she emulatd David Cameron, who should have delegated the negotiation of his
    so called deal; and then been been able to preside over the Referendumo on a neutral basis.


    which is totally true, albeit in the sense that a three sentence letter invoking Article 50 is easy.
     
  16. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    32,444
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    Well, of course you do. What's your excuse for the lack of trade deals under Liam Fox, the transport shambles under Chris Grayling and the total lack of parliamentary authority under Andrea Leadsom?
     
  17. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,584
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    fixed ;)

    From a couple of months ago, but important given that Bercow acts against legal advice from the chief (legal) clerk of the house of commons:



    (start at around 18, basically it is the two Leadsom questions)

    Also, his point about not relying only on precedent cause then nothing would change (and thus that house of parliament never really relied just on precedent) is really not a good point...

    In other news, more garbage by Tusk:
    (what kind of argument is it, by Tusk, to say that Verho is wrong just cause the Farridge applauded his speech :shake: Not that Verh is not a clown himself, but Tusk's response is pure garbage).

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2019
  18. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    32,444
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    UK
    The Speaker is responsible for order in the Commons and deciding on which amendments go forward to a vote. He has nothing to do with how MPs vote or don't vote.
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,692
    Location:
    South Wales
  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    54,584
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page