C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
You can't yet as I have not added the difficulty either as GOMType or allowed Property Manipulators on the HandicapInfo. But that is what I will add when I am back.
Nakkimunakas
Chieftain
How does the AI evaluate its army size? I have enough espionage points to see what my neighbours are doing in their cities and it seems that they are not keeping large enough military compared to how much gold they are making (+800 or +600 per turn with over 100k cash in treasury compared to my +400).
I've been able to build my military from around 0,7 military strenght ratio to 1,5 compared to my neighbours. This kind of mechanic tends to happen in other games too where I have the smallest military at first but i'm able to outbuild everyone. Military would be one obvious use for the abundance of gold that the AI could do.
AI seems(by watching AI city screens) to build lots of troops when they are at war or preparing for war but not too many at peace. The problem is that it often is too late to start building your army when your attacked. With the amount of gold they have they only have few unit in many of their border cities.
So maybe there is an imballance in the evaluation of military against the amount of gold or the military strenght of the neighbors or some other gap. Or is it just a question of not enough production to build both buildings and units fast enough?
If there is need for a save where neighbours have the gold but are slowly left behind in military strenght: View attachment 330340 ,V25, snail, gigantic, deity
I've been able to build my military from around 0,7 military strenght ratio to 1,5 compared to my neighbours. This kind of mechanic tends to happen in other games too where I have the smallest military at first but i'm able to outbuild everyone. Military would be one obvious use for the abundance of gold that the AI could do.
AI seems(by watching AI city screens) to build lots of troops when they are at war or preparing for war but not too many at peace. The problem is that it often is too late to start building your army when your attacked. With the amount of gold they have they only have few unit in many of their border cities.
So maybe there is an imballance in the evaluation of military against the amount of gold or the military strenght of the neighbors or some other gap. Or is it just a question of not enough production to build both buildings and units fast enough?
If there is need for a save where neighbours have the gold but are slowly left behind in military strenght: View attachment 330340 ,V25, snail, gigantic, deity
If it has visibility of the strength of other players, and is not at war, it tries to stay 'in touch' with rivals. Geographically close rivals, and rivals with worse diplomatic relations will increase it's keeness to do that. However, there is currently NO coupling between financial situation and military size, except when it gets into financial difficulties (when it will try to trim down).
I agree that a large financial surplass would probably be a sensible trigger for more military building. It's something I can look to implement at some point, as it should be relatively easy to do. Some slightly strong coupling to rival power is probably also desirable, but we have to be very careful ot to put the AIs into a perpetual arms race with one another all the time a the expense of their economies (which was a serious issue a releases or two ago, and caused the AI to neglect it's economy).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Here is 2 screenies for a Newly Built Guard unit.
The 1st is before it gets any promos. You will notice that it displays -10 and -5 Crime, as it starts with Police I.
The 2nd screenie is after 10% str (the Star symbol) has been added which expands the promo list to add Police II promo. Police II promo was then added. But after all Promos that could be added were added, The Guard's anti crime rating is still -10 and -5. No Change.
Question: Like the TWs is the Display for Guards broken or is the Promos broken?
JosEPh
The 1st is before it gets any promos. You will notice that it displays -10 and -5 Crime, as it starts with Police I.
The 2nd screenie is after 10% str (the Star symbol) has been added which expands the promo list to add Police II promo. Police II promo was then added. But after all Promos that could be added were added, The Guard's anti crime rating is still -10 and -5. No Change.
Question: Like the TWs is the Display for Guards broken or is the Promos broken?
JosEPh
Yes, the display for the crime is messed up. However, as far as I can tell, the property calculations do take into account all sources of -crime. granted, I don't understand that code very well, but when AIAndy gets back he can look and fix anything that may be wrong.
Nakkimunakas
Chieftain
It wasn't all bad. The AIs that didn't get their economy trashed were actually very competitive. Even if it was because they just happened to have enough gold not to limit them.
Currently there are also lots of AIs with way over 100k in treasury with nothing to spend it to. Maybe there should be a mechanism that they would hurry production with gold when over x amount of gold.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I don't know... my last game that went into near modern ended up costing me a hell of a lot of my enormous gold stockpile just to keep up on upgrades. It's not a bad thing to hoard (except for the inflation, assuming that's all been sorted out.)
But armies, both offensive and defensive, will need to be made to be desired to be a bit stronger... I have a number of items to discuss with you, Koshling on this matter regarding some things we should be showing the ai how act in consideration of. I'm not half the AI programmer you are and I may, admittedly need either help or guidance, I don't want to interfere with any development projects you've got on your plate, and I think by explaining a few new strategic elements to you, you'll find better solutions for the ai than I ever could and be able to work those considerations into adjustments you already have in mind.
Sure - why not start a thread for general discussion of strategies and tactics the AI should be encouraged or programmed to follow...
If we made the AI adopt a mentality of "the best defense is a good offense" that would be a good start IMO.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'll do that as soon as I have my stuff merged so I can incorporate the full explanation of added effects into the conversation.
Currently I think that Thunderbrd has only PMed Myself, Hydro, and SO about them. I suspect he will post about it in more detail when they are added.
shenryyr
serval
(version 25, prince)
just passed 500bc in a game and it is just silly... 10k gold per turn, 23k research per turn, 29k culture per turn, we are in the industrial era building steel mills while the ai civs are puttering around in quinquiremes. it is rather odd to note that at this point I cannot recruit a worker anymore- the only options are elephant worker, buffalo worker, and mule worker, which means most cities cannot produce a worker(I just solved this mystery... workers seem to be disabled until you discover nitroglycerine and can produce 'industrial era worker'). On another curious sidenote, is it possible to disable the 'alternative reality' techs and buildings and units? this clockpunk and steampunk stuff isn't of any interest
I must apologize for not reading through the previous 33 pages of this thread but so far balance issues seem to be numerous and drastic
some things that I have come across so far:
have come across plenty more than that, this is just what I could shove into so few words before heading to work- this mod is good fun, I'm just playing through on prince to see how it plays in the different eras. so far I still get MAF crashes every 90 minutes or so, even on low quality graphics, but what can ya do. they give me opportunities to do the things a normal human should be doing, like eat, or breathe.
just passed 500bc in a game and it is just silly... 10k gold per turn, 23k research per turn, 29k culture per turn, we are in the industrial era building steel mills while the ai civs are puttering around in quinquiremes. it is rather odd to note that at this point I cannot recruit a worker anymore- the only options are elephant worker, buffalo worker, and mule worker, which means most cities cannot produce a worker(I just solved this mystery... workers seem to be disabled until you discover nitroglycerine and can produce 'industrial era worker'). On another curious sidenote, is it possible to disable the 'alternative reality' techs and buildings and units? this clockpunk and steampunk stuff isn't of any interest
I must apologize for not reading through the previous 33 pages of this thread but so far balance issues seem to be numerous and drastic
some things that I have come across so far:
Spoiler :
have come across plenty more than that, this is just what I could shove into so few words before heading to work- this mod is good fun, I'm just playing through on prince to see how it plays in the different eras. so far I still get MAF crashes every 90 minutes or so, even on low quality graphics, but what can ya do. they give me opportunities to do the things a normal human should be doing, like eat, or breathe.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Barb World Option on a map with less than 9 AI will wipe out several AI now. And reduce others to just 1 or 2 cities. A couple may develop normally If they can capture a Barb city early.
I had 3 cities before Tribalism this current game on a 6 continent map with 5AI. 1 AI died early leaving an entire continent to the Barbs there. It had 7 or 8 cities by the time I got Fluyts to invade.
1 continent has 1 AI city size 18 but no real tile improvements. Second had 4 cities till I discovered his continent and has since planted 2 more cities. 3rd AI has 10 cities with some barb cities still viable on it's continent. And 4th AI Has 20+ cities. Only real competitor left but 10+ techs behind me.
JosEPh
I had 3 cities before Tribalism this current game on a 6 continent map with 5AI. 1 AI died early leaving an entire continent to the Barbs there. It had 7 or 8 cities by the time I got Fluyts to invade.
1 continent has 1 AI city size 18 but no real tile improvements. Second had 4 cities till I discovered his continent and has since planted 2 more cities. 3rd AI has 10 cities with some barb cities still viable on it's continent. And 4th AI Has 20+ cities. Only real competitor left but 10+ techs behind me.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Another complaint about to much gold to counter all the complaints about too little gold :sigh:
Worker units upgrade in C2C so of course you can only build the latest. Gatherers upgrade to workers which upgrade to (Elephant worker or Buffalo worker or Mule worker) which upgrade to Industrial worker then modern worker and so on.
Yes. In Assets/Modules/Alt-TimeLines edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.XML and change th 1 to a 0 for those two. Note: iirc this does not remove the techs from the tech tree, it is something we need to add.
We added the Tribal Guardian to try and keep the AI alive until the AI code for defense could be worked on. Perhaps if Raging Barbarians or Barbarian World is on we should also give a Tribal Guardian to any new city settled by a tribe.
Worker units upgrade in C2C so of course you can only build the latest. Gatherers upgrade to workers which upgrade to (Elephant worker or Buffalo worker or Mule worker) which upgrade to Industrial worker then modern worker and so on.
Yes. In Assets/Modules/Alt-TimeLines edit MLF_CIV4ModularLoadingControls.XML and change th 1 to a 0 for those two. Note: iirc this does not remove the techs from the tech tree, it is something we need to add.
We added the Tribal Guardian to try and keep the AI alive until the AI code for defense could be worked on. Perhaps if Raging Barbarians or Barbarian World is on we should also give a Tribal Guardian to any new city settled by a tribe.
I'll respond to your points individually, I suspect I know what is causing some of them, others are issues that will need to be fixed.
1. Industrial Age and beyond buildings do really need to have their costs increased a lot. This has been neglected for over a year now, and It is long overdue.
2. The Grand Estate probably replaces something else, and that is why the Actual bar says that. I think that we need to go through and fix those building chains so that upgrades are actually more important and have greater benefits. If you can provide a list of things that in your opinion need changing Hydro can probably change them.
3. Unfortunately ori (our events guy) is also a Super Mod here at CFC, and does not have a lot of time to mod C2C. DH is the other one who knows how to make events, and his computer has been broken in one form or another for over a month.
4. I agree about Mining specific and Crop specific buildings, but those were Hydro's creations, and so probably won't get changed, unless they are holdovers from the old Goods system.
5. Housing is another part of the mod I think is underdeveloped, at the least those buildings need a cost increase, to make building them an actual strategic decision.
6. When V26 is released (in a couple days), please test it (and do a modifier recalc) and see how much
you are recieving, a lot of changes were made this version with balancing of Inflation and Civics.In short, I suspect that the fact that you have no AI competition (see below for why) and so no need for a military is another major factor in the imbalances you are seeing. Not many get to the Industrial Era, so it does not get as well balanced, you have provided us with an excellent opportunity to work on that. Would you be willing to post your savegame, so that we can look and see what all is imbalanced? That would be something we've not had for a long time, a well-developed Industrial save to find issues with.
As to why you aren't having any serious AI threat, part of it is due to the AI's incompetence (which was also improved in V26), but I think a large part of it was due to your map. Assuming this is the same game you had in the vid, your starting continent was way too small, and Raging Barbs (if you used that option) probably didn't help. Giant is the lowest mapsize that I think is really balanced for C2C, in terms of giving everyone a good fighting chance, and with Viewports you can run that size of map without many, if any, MAFs. The third reason I think you steamrolled in this game was because the AI built way too many Archers, which you countered with Javelineers with City Raider. That is also reduced in V26, the AI builds more balanced defensive stacks. Also, playing your next game on Deity might give you a nasty awakening.
Thanks so much for pointing out what is broken in later eras, without that we would never be able to make C2C a more enjoyable mod and a more challenging experience.
shenryyr
serval
hey I'm just posting observations from one of my first plays of the mod... I am not here to complain, if anything quite the opposite, I have had quite a lot of fun with it so far
the problem is I started colonizing about this time, and could not build workers in the new colonies because they had no resources connected(the animal workers all require having that animal). so I had to go back to my mainland to transport some workers over. it is a little silly to not be able to build workers at all
cool, thanks. I'll have to remember to do that before beginning a new game
Good to know V26 will have some helpful things like AI producing balanced stacks... I felt guilty rocking their world with only City Raider Javilineers. Yes I've been continuing the game from the video, I'll post the current savefile here. While we wait to tech up, we've been at peace but swamping the AI with Privateers and Outlaws, further slowing their ability to advance. Yeah, next time I'll go for something like deity, but this time I just want to see how the mod plays, what buildings and units become available, how they can be used, etc.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@shenryyr
I loved your C2C YouTube video. Please do more episodes.
If you have any questions let us know. They are very helpful in finding bugs and seeing how people play. Quill's videos for instance helped me solve a bunch of bugs because as a moder I sometimes think something is obvious, when its not.
The invincible llamas in your video was hilarious. But also a good example of a balance problem that got overlooked. I also did not realize that the subdued animals kept their promotions. I am not sure if that should be changed or kept. However they are under DH's control so it would be up to him if they should be altered.
In short C2C videos help a lot in improving the game. You are like play testers we can watch and see how you play and interpret things we made.
I loved your C2C YouTube video. Please do more episodes.
If you have any questions let us know. They are very helpful in finding bugs and seeing how people play. Quill's videos for instance helped me solve a bunch of bugs because as a moder I sometimes think something is obvious, when its not.
The invincible llamas in your video was hilarious. But also a good example of a balance problem that got overlooked. I also did not realize that the subdued animals kept their promotions. I am not sure if that should be changed or kept. However they are under DH's control so it would be up to him if they should be altered.
In short C2C videos help a lot in improving the game. You are like play testers we can watch and see how you play and interpret things we made.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
the problem is I started colonizing about this time, and could not build workers in the new colonies because they had no resources connected(the animal workers all require having that animal). so I had to go back to my mainland to transport some workers over. it is a little silly to not be able to build workers at all
Strange, I just checked and I can still build workers if I have the buffalo ones available. Maybe it is only if you have all of them available.
The workers should have still been available in unconnected cities because those upgrades require a building in the city. very 
