CBob02 Jaguar Conquest
- Thread starter CommandoBob
- Start date
. Sorry about that. I was working off Norton's last saveLboogie13
Warlord
Doh. Sorry I was trying to post in a hurry before the wife got home. Here is the save.
View attachment CBob02_BC_1250_Lboogie.SAV
What is the crap about RoP "rape"?
1. There was no RoP agreement.
2. I wasn't in Celtic territory when I declared war. The city I attacked was small, not much cultural influence. I could see it defended by spear, moved in and attacked.
3. Using the word "rape" for a video game is a bit extreme, don't you think?
View attachment CBob02_BC_1250_Lboogie.SAV
What is the crap about RoP "rape"?
1. There was no RoP agreement.
2. I wasn't in Celtic territory when I declared war. The city I attacked was small, not much cultural influence. I could see it defended by spear, moved in and attacked.
3. Using the word "rape" for a video game is a bit extreme, don't you think?
This is what made us think you were in Celtic territory when you declared:
So basically it was just a misunderstanding.
Now for points 1 and 3:
1. There doesn't have to be an explicit RoP agreement in place for you to ruin your RoP reputation. If you declare war on a civ when you have units in that civ's territory (I'm not sure if currags or unloaded galleys count, and I don't think workers or scouts do), you RoP reputation is ruined with that civ and with everyone who knows about your actions. That means you won't be able to sign RoP agreements, but it won't affect your trading reputation.
3. "Rape" is just used for its alliteration with "RoP". If you don't like that particular phrase, you can just say "RoP abuse".
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
It is not exactly fair, but the AI places a higher value on you keeping your word with the AI than the AI places on keeping their word with you.
But if something happens that 'breaks' your word, even if it wasn't your fault, you are the guilty party.
For instance, you and Rome share the same landmass but your cities are not connected, but both of you have harbors and galleys. So you sell Rome some excess Wines for some gold per turn. Midway through this 20 turn agreement India declares war on you. One of India's galleys ends it's turn in a coastal tile between you and Rome, thus blocking the trade route with you and Rome.
The Romans blame you, not the Indians. And they will whine to any AI they meet about how you could not keep your word.
Which means that for the rest of the game, you will not be able to offer gold-per-turn deals to the AI. The AIs may offer you a gpt deal, but if it is your offer to them it will be refused.
I have a fuzzy knowledge of how trading and reputation go together. In the War Academy are several articles on how all that works behind the scenes.
The way I use what I know is quite simple. I don't make a lot of gold-per-turn deals. And I keep track of what the deals are (easy to do with MapStat and CivAssist II).
But if something happens that 'breaks' your word, even if it wasn't your fault, you are the guilty party.
For instance, you and Rome share the same landmass but your cities are not connected, but both of you have harbors and galleys. So you sell Rome some excess Wines for some gold per turn. Midway through this 20 turn agreement India declares war on you. One of India's galleys ends it's turn in a coastal tile between you and Rome, thus blocking the trade route with you and Rome.
The Romans blame you, not the Indians. And they will whine to any AI they meet about how you could not keep your word.
Which means that for the rest of the game, you will not be able to offer gold-per-turn deals to the AI. The AIs may offer you a gpt deal, but if it is your offer to them it will be refused.
I have a fuzzy knowledge of how trading and reputation go together. In the War Academy are several articles on how all that works behind the scenes.
The way I use what I know is quite simple. I don't make a lot of gold-per-turn deals. And I keep track of what the deals are (easy to do with MapStat and CivAssist II).
CivActuary
Warlord
Getting back to business,
- I agree with slowing the tech pace down. This game will be won in the AA - if it gets to the MA we will be the ones at a disadvantage. Because of that, we should stay in despotism for the duration. Sure the unit support would be nicer, but we should be establishing enough cities along our path to be ok. Plus we won't have worker support after a while once we have enough slaves.
- It was just a random thought, but after establishing embassies, what about fostering a war between our 2 farthest away adversaries? Since we wouldn't be getting to them for a while, it would have the effect of slowing down their research and using up some of their troops (against someone other than us).
- I agree with slowing the tech pace down. This game will be won in the AA - if it gets to the MA we will be the ones at a disadvantage. Because of that, we should stay in despotism for the duration. Sure the unit support would be nicer, but we should be establishing enough cities along our path to be ok. Plus we won't have worker support after a while once we have enough slaves.
- It was just a random thought, but after establishing embassies, what about fostering a war between our 2 farthest away adversaries? Since we wouldn't be getting to them for a while, it would have the effect of slowing down their research and using up some of their troops (against someone other than us).
Elephantium
Trampling the AI
lurker's comment: Fascinating game. Good luck to you all!
Phaedo
Emperor
If we can do it we should. Getting everyone into war economies is the best way I can think of slowing the research rate down.
Got it. I'll look at the save, post a plan later tonight and play tomorrow.
Phaedo
Emperor
Well, we don't seem to have anything to tempt America into war with anyone. What if we declared against far civs and let them walk to us. Maybe by the time they get to us and we kill a couple of units we can pick up some gold. In the meantime, they will be spending their coin on war and might get aggressive with their neighbours after we sue for peace.
If we want to get civs into war with each other, we will need embassies (we can afford 1 now). Basically, we need a lot more cash.
It looks like my set will be trying to get settlers out and develop land. We are at -6gpt now. More cities will help. I forgot to check the Military adviser.
If we want to get civs into war with each other, we will need embassies (we can afford 1 now). Basically, we need a lot more cash.
It looks like my set will be trying to get settlers out and develop land. We are at -6gpt now. More cities will help. I forgot to check the Military adviser.
TimBentley
Deity
I'll be out until Monday.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Let's kick this idea around some and see how good it is.
Declare war with two faraway civs. They walk to us, but we don't suffer any WW. Right about the time we see their units getting close, we make peace with one and then MA with that civ against the other civ.
This will keep these two focused on war and not science, while we gooble up our neighbors. Once these two start fighting each other they will weaken each other as our units draw closer by conquests.
Just a quick brainflash, not too well thought, but good enough to warrant further discussion.
Phaedo
Emperor
I think we will have to kill a couple of units to get a reasonable peace, but with distant Civs I can't really see that we would be in much danger. We are very mobile and they will be if they have horses. I think it will slow down the tech pace and keep them poor. We are building a military anyway so I think it could work. I'd like to have more input though before I go starting wars. We have to be a bit concerned about getting dogpiled but I don't think it's that big a deal. It's basically short term AW with the possibility of a convenient peace.
Sounds good to me, but the first order of business is to rebuild our stack--our jags are a little scattered right now. HH should be building a settler instead of a jag, and we need to make a specialist there to prevent riots (don't need a clown; a taxman or geek will do). Also, looking at Phaedo's earlier dotmap, I think we need to pack our cities in a little bit more than that. We don't need many shields to make good jag pumps, but it'll be easier to get enough shields if our cities are closer to the capital (less waste).
Lboogie13
Warlord
I agree with going to war with a far away civ. The AI will trickle some units in our use a lot of resources trying to build a stack. Either way it should slow down tech research. Plus, I think we can handle a few units behind our lines if the AI makes a naval landing.
CivActuary
Warlord
This early I wouldn't expect any naval landings, I would hope.
Phaedo
Emperor
@ Norton: I agree with the settler change and consolidating our force. I don't think we need to wait too long before a declaration though. Jags are speedy. A question though, why do we want to pack the cities closer? The only units we will be building have 2 movement so defense isn't an issue. We could space cities at CxxxxC and it would be the same as CxxC in a normal game. I'm not married to the map but our borders will be consolidated and we expand our area while maxing our OCN.
P.S. I'll play in about 10 hours unless people want me to wait a bit more
P.S. I'll play in about 10 hours unless people want me to wait a bit more
Phaedo
Emperor
Have a little look around. Change AzAz to a settler and Rome and JSoR to raxes. No point in making rJags.
Looking to get a city down (settler in 4) to claim the fur.
We currently have 21 Jags, 4 workers and 2 slaves
I'll post this now and then start the set.
Edit: England looks like a very safe enemy, although Maya is the leader at this time.
EDIT 2: HH changed to settler not AzAz
Looking to get a city down (settler in 4) to claim the fur.
We currently have 21 Jags, 4 workers and 2 slaves
I'll post this now and then start the set.
Edit: England looks like a very safe enemy, although Maya is the leader at this time.
EDIT 2: HH changed to settler not AzAz
Phaedo
Emperor
I just finished turn 3 and before going on, I wanted to get some input.
Smokey will give us Maps and 50g for an alliance against Ugly. I want to take it. Ugly is far away and it would be great to Get Smokey into a war. They are both the tech leaders and Maya is getting big.
It will allow us to shut off research and maybe get some maps from others to open up the screen. Most importantly, they are next to each other so I don't expect we will get many of Ugly's units coming at us. The war with the Celts is going as expected. I've pulled back to heal up some units and get an effective stack together. We currently have 9 full strength Jags in a stack with 3 wounded units. We have killed a single Celt warrior and pillaged their iron. There are 10 reinforcements coming up from the south and we are a couple of turns from getting a settler out.
Those are the highlights. What do you think team? Do we join Maya in a war with Ugly?
Smokey will give us Maps and 50g for an alliance against Ugly. I want to take it. Ugly is far away and it would be great to Get Smokey into a war. They are both the tech leaders and Maya is getting big.
It will allow us to shut off research and maybe get some maps from others to open up the screen. Most importantly, they are next to each other so I don't expect we will get many of Ugly's units coming at us. The war with the Celts is going as expected. I've pulled back to heal up some units and get an effective stack together. We currently have 9 full strength Jags in a stack with 3 wounded units. We have killed a single Celt warrior and pillaged their iron. There are 10 reinforcements coming up from the south and we are a couple of turns from getting a settler out.
Those are the highlights. What do you think team? Do we join Maya in a war with Ugly?
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Our reputation as great fighters has made its way to center of the Mayan empire and they request our help and offer gifts to bribe us. 
We can be bought.
And we'll declare war.
And send no troops.
We can be bought.
And we'll declare war.
And send no troops.
Phaedo
Emperor
I guess I'll make the deal then. I'm going to finish the set now
Phaedo
Emperor
Post, have another look around and edit.
Realize HH is going to riot so hire a taxman
Think about dropping the science slider to 50% to break even. trading maps would be nice but we need embassies and that means cash. Drop it to 40%. Maps in 17, +3gpt.
Maya have 5 cities and are the leaders. Build an embassy for 55g. They are 23 from the Pyramids and have a spear and javelin defending. No city builds.
Actually, I think war with them would be more helpful to us than Brennus but that won't happen in my set.
And... >Return<
IBT some movement but nothing really important other than another unit moved into Alesia.
T1 1225BC
Change Rome back to a Jag. It is corrupt and we can use some MPs.
Finish the road S of JSoR. We now have a pretty fast route north to the Celts. Start a mine.
HH will grow in time for the settler. Changing the science slider meant that the specialist could go back to work. there were 2 workers that finished a road. It will grow in 5 so one worker starts a mine and the other heads N to water SNA
Keep 2 Jags exploring East and the others start heading NW to the Celts.
The stack near Alesia isn't enough to take out 2 units so I move it out to heal the 2/5 eJag. The other small stack in Celt territory pillages the iron and moves out to support. We'll have a stack of 9 full strength Jags next turn with some hurt ones. That shoudld be enough for a poke.
I think I'm going to keep a worker dedicated to building a road North. It will speed up any attack and will initially be heading to Celt land so it won't help Lizzie if we declare on her.
IBT Smokey kicks us out.
T2 1200BC
The Jag Smokey kicked out heads N to see what's under the fog. Our eastern explorer has some room to maneuver and explore.
Brennus is sending a couple of warriors against us. We have to stacks of 4 full strength Jags to deal with it.
IBT Ugly demands Math. I decide to reject it figuring he can be one of the far off wars but his threat is empty.
T3 1175BC
Attack a Celt warrior and win (1-0)
The stack consolidates 9 full strength 2 2hp and a 3/4 with another full strength beside them. We'll move in on Brennus again after takig out the roaming warrior between us and the city.
Exploring Jag finds a Barb camp.
7 Jag reinforcements coming up from the South.
Takle the deal With Smokey against Ugly
Use the cash to build an embassy in London. 2 spears defending and 20 from the colossus.
IBT see a Celt archer and build a floor on the palace.
T4 1150BC
Shut down research. That also lets us drop the lux to 10%. We are now at 12gpt.
Exploring Jag takes out a barb camp and get promoted!
I keep forgetting that Maps don't let us trade WMs.
We now have a stack of 10 full-strength Jags for a Celtic Assault but their 2 units are on hills and we would be attacking from the desert. Heal for a turn.
Decide that if ther was 1 barb camp out there I better make a little detour to the front and make sure we don't have one in the fog north of us. There's no one at home to defend.
Find a barb on the road and kill him.
Send another jag along the road, find the cam and take it too.
While going to check for trades, see that AzAz is going to riot. When I dropped the Lux, there was an MP there. Up again. Now 9gpt.
IBT Zzzzz
T5 1125BC
Keep shuffling. troops. The Celt archer will be off the hill next turn and the invasion can begin.
Settler built (Jag in 3), heading to the fur spot.
IBT see a Celt rWarrios appear on the hills.
T6 1100BC
Send the stack in to Celt territory on the hill. I ignored the other Celt units and will make a push for the city. The reinforcements can take care of the units straggling in.
While shuffling troops north, see a lone Mongol warrior heading south. I think we can take him
Settler continues along path and send a worker to road behind him.
IBT Lose a Jag to an Archer (1-1)
T7 1075BC
Take out the 2 warriors and archer around the stack (3-3).
Move settler in position.
IBT Americans join Ugly against Maya. Maya wants an Alliance vs Abe (reject). Abe wants us to join him against Maya. Reject but take 37g for a ROP.
T8 1050BC
Make an ROP agreement with Smokey for exploring purposes and to make sure he doesn't flip against us.
Kill a barb that was harassing our workers around Rome.
Found Fake Fur Coat
IBT Mongol archer takes out a barb camp.
T9 1025BC
Send the stack next to Alesia. I think it might have been a mistake to pull them back at the beginning. Reinforcements are coming so we fight to the death next turn.
eJag finds a mongol archer on his last movement. I hope he gets the chance to run away.
Rax built in SNA and starts a Jag. Jag production in coming online.
IBT Jag in the stack beats a Celt archer but the eJag dies (4-4)
T10 1000BC
Keep exploring
AzAz changes to a worker (it will grow to 7 next turn)
Keep shuffling troops. Prepare to take out the invading Mongols from the North. They have to move to grass and we have 3 Jags on a Mt.
The stack attacks
Take out Alesia with one loss (6-5)
Expose Entremont. We may be able to take it in a turn or two.
And that's it.
All and all not too bad. I shouldn't have waited to attack Alesia but I'm used to saving units and I have to get used to taking losses in this game. I forgot to check how many Jags we have but lots and we can get 3-4 every 2-3 turns. The only tech that the AI is up on us is HBR. We are actually tech leaders on some of them. Things seem to be going well. I think we can take out Brennus in the next couple of sets. We need to be careful of Ugly's troops coming at us but we can manage it easily enough. They are slow and we aren't.
Realize HH is going to riot so hire a taxman
Think about dropping the science slider to 50% to break even. trading maps would be nice but we need embassies and that means cash. Drop it to 40%. Maps in 17, +3gpt.
Maya have 5 cities and are the leaders. Build an embassy for 55g. They are 23 from the Pyramids and have a spear and javelin defending. No city builds.
Actually, I think war with them would be more helpful to us than Brennus but that won't happen in my set.
And... >Return<
IBT some movement but nothing really important other than another unit moved into Alesia.
T1 1225BC
Change Rome back to a Jag. It is corrupt and we can use some MPs.
Finish the road S of JSoR. We now have a pretty fast route north to the Celts. Start a mine.
HH will grow in time for the settler. Changing the science slider meant that the specialist could go back to work. there were 2 workers that finished a road. It will grow in 5 so one worker starts a mine and the other heads N to water SNA
Keep 2 Jags exploring East and the others start heading NW to the Celts.
The stack near Alesia isn't enough to take out 2 units so I move it out to heal the 2/5 eJag. The other small stack in Celt territory pillages the iron and moves out to support. We'll have a stack of 9 full strength Jags next turn with some hurt ones. That shoudld be enough for a poke.
I think I'm going to keep a worker dedicated to building a road North. It will speed up any attack and will initially be heading to Celt land so it won't help Lizzie if we declare on her.
IBT Smokey kicks us out.
T2 1200BC
The Jag Smokey kicked out heads N to see what's under the fog. Our eastern explorer has some room to maneuver and explore.
Brennus is sending a couple of warriors against us. We have to stacks of 4 full strength Jags to deal with it.
IBT Ugly demands Math. I decide to reject it figuring he can be one of the far off wars but his threat is empty.
T3 1175BC
Attack a Celt warrior and win (1-0)
The stack consolidates 9 full strength 2 2hp and a 3/4 with another full strength beside them. We'll move in on Brennus again after takig out the roaming warrior between us and the city.
Exploring Jag finds a Barb camp.
7 Jag reinforcements coming up from the South.
Takle the deal With Smokey against Ugly
Use the cash to build an embassy in London. 2 spears defending and 20 from the colossus.
IBT see a Celt archer and build a floor on the palace.
T4 1150BC
Shut down research. That also lets us drop the lux to 10%. We are now at 12gpt.
Exploring Jag takes out a barb camp and get promoted!
I keep forgetting that Maps don't let us trade WMs.
We now have a stack of 10 full-strength Jags for a Celtic Assault but their 2 units are on hills and we would be attacking from the desert. Heal for a turn.
Decide that if ther was 1 barb camp out there I better make a little detour to the front and make sure we don't have one in the fog north of us. There's no one at home to defend.
Find a barb on the road and kill him.
Send another jag along the road, find the cam and take it too.
While going to check for trades, see that AzAz is going to riot. When I dropped the Lux, there was an MP there. Up again. Now 9gpt.
IBT Zzzzz
T5 1125BC
Keep shuffling. troops. The Celt archer will be off the hill next turn and the invasion can begin.
Settler built (Jag in 3), heading to the fur spot.
IBT see a Celt rWarrios appear on the hills.
T6 1100BC
Send the stack in to Celt territory on the hill. I ignored the other Celt units and will make a push for the city. The reinforcements can take care of the units straggling in.
While shuffling troops north, see a lone Mongol warrior heading south. I think we can take him
Settler continues along path and send a worker to road behind him.
IBT Lose a Jag to an Archer (1-1)
T7 1075BC
Take out the 2 warriors and archer around the stack (3-3).
Move settler in position.
IBT Americans join Ugly against Maya. Maya wants an Alliance vs Abe (reject). Abe wants us to join him against Maya. Reject but take 37g for a ROP.
T8 1050BC
Make an ROP agreement with Smokey for exploring purposes and to make sure he doesn't flip against us.
Kill a barb that was harassing our workers around Rome.
Found Fake Fur Coat
IBT Mongol archer takes out a barb camp.
T9 1025BC
Send the stack next to Alesia. I think it might have been a mistake to pull them back at the beginning. Reinforcements are coming so we fight to the death next turn.
eJag finds a mongol archer on his last movement. I hope he gets the chance to run away.
Rax built in SNA and starts a Jag. Jag production in coming online.
IBT Jag in the stack beats a Celt archer but the eJag dies (4-4)
T10 1000BC
Keep exploring
AzAz changes to a worker (it will grow to 7 next turn)
Keep shuffling troops. Prepare to take out the invading Mongols from the North. They have to move to grass and we have 3 Jags on a Mt.
The stack attacks
Take out Alesia with one loss (6-5)
Expose Entremont. We may be able to take it in a turn or two.
And that's it.
All and all not too bad. I shouldn't have waited to attack Alesia but I'm used to saving units and I have to get used to taking losses in this game. I forgot to check how many Jags we have but lots and we can get 3-4 every 2-3 turns. The only tech that the AI is up on us is HBR. We are actually tech leaders on some of them. Things seem to be going well. I think we can take out Brennus in the next couple of sets. We need to be careful of Ugly's troops coming at us but we can manage it easily enough. They are slow and we aren't.
Spoiler :
