CBob03 Germans in Tu-tus

[gmaharriet]

Speaking of Feudalism, I dont know...I've never played with Feudalism.

lurker's comment: If you're looking for a sample 100k culture game using Feudalism, here's a link to gmaharriet01. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154563

We played the Mongols, Emperor, 70% Continents. Team was made up of Scoutsout, Whomp, Admiral Kutzov, Fe333au, me and a "lurker spot" with turnsets taken by Bede, TimBently, Simple Monkey, MadViking and ClassicalHero...an all-star cast.

It wasn't a training game, but since I'd never done a 100K or Feudalism before, there's lots and lots of questions and answers about "how to".

 

[Norton II]

However, the downside is that Feudalism requires forced labor. So unless we're getting a bunch of slaves (by razing AI cities), this is not an effective method. I'd stick with the Republic (or Monarchy or Democracy) unless there are some significant ideas I have missed.

lurker's comment: Actually, forced labor is one of the chief advantages of feudalism in 100k games--you can irrigate all your ultra-corrupt towns and whip cultural buildings in all of them. Also, unit support will never be a problem since you'll have 100 or so towns and only about 20 cities (and probably no metros). The only thing you really need to watch out for is war weariness: feudalism has the same WW as republic but does not get the commerce bonus, so the economic impact is greater.

 

[Ansar]

lurker's comment: If you're looking for a sample 100k culture game using Feudalism, here's a link to gmaharriet01. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154563

We played the Mongols, Emperor, 70% Continents. Team was made up of Scoutsout, Whomp, Admiral Kutzov, Fe333au, me and a "lurker spot" with turnsets taken by Bede, TimBently, Simple Monkey, MadViking and ClassicalHero...an all-star cast.

It wasn't a training game, but since I'd never done a 100K or Feudalism before, there's lots and lots of questions and answers about "how to".

I remembered that someone had done a 100k with Feudalism before.

Thanks gma!

 

[Tribute]

lurker's comment: Actually, forced labor is one of the chief advantages of feudalism in 100k games--you can irrigate all your ultra-corrupt towns and whip cultural buildings in all of them. Also, unit support will never be a problem since you'll have 100 or so towns and only about 20 cities (and probably no metros). The only thing you really need to watch out for is war weariness: feudalism has the same WW as republic but does not get the commerce bonus, so the economic impact is greater.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I must first examine the evidence. Then the verdict will come.

But the costs!
universities cost 80 (4 or 320 gold)
libraries cost 40 (2 or 160 gold)
temple cost 60 (3 or 240 gold)
cathedral cost 160 (8 or 640 gold) (with partial rushes, I'd suppose)
colluseum cost 120 (6 or 480 gold)
markets cost 100 (5)

Feudalism. Lose 28 people per town. Maybe 120 turns to get those 28 people. We need the marketplace and 8 luxes and 3 MP's and 100 turns to pass to keep all of them happy. We also need to support 900 gpt of towns without the Republic bonus with only 20 main cities. Difficult even if the other 80 towns are doing wealth and tax collector. (That's 320 gpt less to get).

Republic. We need to make 147.2K, which decreases by 320 gold every turn the towns are not rushed. When we are done we can tax collect and wealth so that we can support a 480 gpt debt with our 20 main towns (banked and marketed). Assuming we can make 500 gpt before we start, it would still take about 200 turns to do (since we can't exactly save much money when we're making these settlers and regrowing to size 12).

Feudalism is impractical from a money standpoint. Republic is ridiculously slow because of the high costs of rushing. Ideally, we could switch between the two. But that's just me talking.... (We should seriously consider this.)

I see many ways to improve either strategy. We could send sacrifices to the whipping towns for Feudalism or we could sell our techs in the Republic.

Either way, there is a 14 cpt thing going on here. We'll need about 90k culture points by the time we're done with the set up, so 64 turns later, we should win. Time is no issue. Of course, we ought to set a goal date, like 1950 AD. Of course, the 'skill point' is 1850 AD.

Republic takes 264 turns. Feudalism takes 184 turns. If Republic route, we should start at about 750 AD, which is unfortunately, impossible. Feudalism route requires us to start at about 1400 AD. This is very reasonable, but then again, the money thing is still an issue.

I think the thing we'll have to do is quite obvious. Norton is right that Feudalism is the rushing goodness we need. Then Democracy or Republic will suffice in the monetary support of this venture. That means no war once we've finished rushing. Such a shame, no?

 

[CommandoBob]

I think the thing we'll have to do is quite obvious. Norton is right that Feudalism is the rushing goodness we need. Then Democracy or Republic will suffice in the monetary support of this venture. That means no war once we've finished rushing. Such a shame, no?

Sounds like we play this game in two distinct phases.

Phase 1: We play as the barbarians in the Captial One commercials; that is we expand, conquer and beat up on everybody else. We'll have a lot of small towns (for unit support) that we will whip for culture improvements. We'll be in Feudalism at this time. We'll plan to own half (?) or one third (?) of the land before we stop expanding. Or we stop expanding at a specified date.

Phase 2: We change government and become a money maker to pay for all the culture buildings we have. Our core will have markets and such; the fringes will not. We might have a few cities over size 12 to help with commerce.


We'll have to change governments twice; once into Feudalism and once again out of Feudalism to something better for us. That probably means 9 turns of anarchy each time, given the size of our civ.

 

[mr_2_you]

but.....but..... what about the panzers?

 

[CommandoBob]

but.....but..... what about the panzers?

Nothing like a late game Golden Age to let us outrun the AIs.

We'll build Panzers. Even at that stage of the game, we'll probably have an AI declare war on us.

But once we get to Education and Monotheism, we've got all the culture techs we need. So with prolonged AI vs. AI wars, they won't be much smarter than us.

 

[Ansar]

Actually, I think with out superior culture, the AI will not fight us but rather want to be part of us.

 

[CommandoBob]

Here is a little factoid about pangea maps, based on my extensive recent games on pangea (all three of them!).

One civ will be isolated on a good sized island, large enough for several (three to seven is what I've seen) cities.

Don't know how that will play out in this game.

 

[Tribute]

That probably won't happen. My Pangaea 60% water had very few but small islands. All civs started on the main landmass though some were pretty much stuck on long peninsulas.

If it does, 3 to 7 cities is pretty small. And if it's us, I'm sure we'll know how to get off of it.

So I think we can begin the first turn, no? CBob, it's yours, right?

 

[CommandoBob]

Was examining the tech tree again.

In a 'normal' the standard tactic is to learn Alphabet -> Writing -> Code of Laws -> Philosophy and pick up Republic for free.

This is Monarch, we're clever, we might be able to do that.

Except we are planning to stay in Despotism until we learn Feudalism and then switch to Feudalism as our government. Except for trading, Republic does not appeal to us in this Ancient Age.

And for our needs, all we get from Alphabet is Curraghs, which are sort of useless on a pangea map.

So I think we learn Pottery first, which lets us build granaries, which in turn can help create and maintain a settler pump.

The other option is to learn Iron Working, a second tier tech, and trade it around for goodies.

Of the two, I prefer Pottery, since it lets us control our destiny and not rely on AI research and trading.

 

[Bucephalus]

And for our needs, all we get from Alphabet is Curraghs, which are sort of useless on a pangea map.

lurker's comment:

I'm not sure I'd agree with that, CB; have you considered that the Curragh has extra movement when compared to a ground unit?

Or that all Civ's will have a coastal border, whereas territorial bounderies will block a land based explorer long before you've met everyone?

That said, I would say on Monarch you can afford a detour to Pottery, and still get the slingshot if you desire.

 

[CommandoBob]

lurker's comment:

I'm not sure I'd agree with that, CB; have you considered that the Curragh has extra movement when compared to a ground unit?

Or that all Civ's will have a coastal border, whereas territorial bounderies will block a land based explorer long before you've met everyone?

That said, I would say on Monarch you can afford a detour to Pottery, and still get the slingshot if you desire.

If we had a coastal city I might have considered those things initially. But we don't (yet) and I didn't.

So let's go for Pottery and then Alphabet. Pottery for grainary and Alphabet for curraghs.

 

[CommandoBob]

0 4000 BC

Settler SE.
Worker01 mines, 6 turns.
​

[IBT]

1 3950 BC

Richard Wagner becomes our capital, grows in 10, rWarrior in 5.
Richard Wagner wrote a lot of operas. Ride of the Valkyries is one of his more popular pieces.
We begin to learn Pottey, 100% science, 22 turns.
​

[IBT]

2 3900 BC

zzz
​

[IBT]

3 3850 BC

zzzz
​

[IBT]

4 3800 BC

zzzzz
​

[IBT]

5 3750 BC

zzzzzz
​

[IBT]
Richard Wagner rWarrior (01) -> rWarrior, 4 turns.
RW grows in 5, a worker will only take 4 turns, since the BG is now mined.

6 3700 BC

Warrior01 moves East onto mountians, sees a goody hut.
Worker01 roads, 3 turns.
​

[IBT]


7 3650 BC

Warrior01 NE, mountain to mountain.
​

[IBT]

8 3600 BC

Warrior01 N, mountain to mountain.
​

[IBT]

9 3550 BC

Worker01 SE, to mine and road.
Warrior01 N, mountain to mountain.
​

[IBT]
Richard Wagner rWarrior (02) -> worker in 4.

10 3500 BC

Worker01 mines a BG.
Warrior01 N, mountain to mountian.
Warrior02 S, crossing a river.
​

[IBT]
Initial culture expansion from Richard Wagner.

11 3450 BC

Warrior02 S towards some sort of coastline.
Warrior01 W into grassland.
​

[IBT]

12 3400 BC

Warrior01 W, onto mountain.
Warrior02 E, to a BG.
​

[IBT]
Richard Wagner worker (02) -> rWarrior in 4 (for crowd control).


13 3350 BC

Worker02 S across the river.
Warrior02 E, scouting the coastline.
Warrior01 W onto plains.
​

[IBT]

14 3300 BC

Warrior01 W into forest.
Worker02 mines the BG.
Warrior02 NE along the coast.
​

[IBT]

15 3250 BC

Warrior01 W onto plains.
Warrior02 NE along the coast.
​

[IBT]

16 3200 BC

Warrior02 NE again.
Worker01 makes road.
Warrior01 S into forest.
​

[IBT]
Richard Wagner rWarrior (03) -> settler in 10.
Low treasury warning.

17 3150 BC

Warrior03 fortifies in Richard Wagner.
Warrior01 S.
Warrior02 NE.
​

[IBT]
Low treasury warning.

18 3100 BC

Warrior02 N.
Warrior01 S.
​

[IBT]
Low treasury warning.

19 3050 BC

Warrior01 S.
Worker01, road finished, moves to the tobacco SE of RW, to irrigate and road.
Warrior02 N.
​

[IBT]
We learn Pottery, begin to learn Alphabet, 45 turns.
Low treasury warning.

20 3000 BC

Warrior02 N.
Worker01 irrigates.
Worker02 roads.
Warrior01 S.
Drop science from 100% to 80%; our gpt becomes 0 and Alphabet is 50 turns away.
Drop science down to 10%, +3 gpt and science still in 50 turns.
​

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

East Germany 3000 BC

West Germany 3000 BC

We have goody huts to the east and west. We can open those later; wanted to explore as much as possible.

We have met nobody.

We have a natural barrier of mountians to the north and east.

We do have a coastline to the south.

We have no luxuries nearby.

Roster
CommandoBob - just played
Tribute - UP!
SipTheSoup - on deck
Elphantium - warming up
mr_2_you
ansar

 

[Tribute]

Settler in 7 is a placehold, right? We can't really build a settler without wasting shields (or a worker), so I'm hoping that guess is correct.

Since I probably won't be settling, I'll just say that I recommend the wheat site where you can get the coast and both wheats at the same time.

We have high production, and low food. I can't see the turns to alphabet, but a granary probably what the settler is placeholding for since we just got pottery. (I guess it's not a rax since we're militaristic and they're only 20 shields now.)

So I'll just be finishing a granary and exploring. Worker moves too. Goody! Now, then. Would you like me to
1) pop all huts I see (going around in circles near the Foggy area)
2) try and aim for civs, hitting huts on the way
3) do 2 and also smack barbarians.
4) Or the 1 with killing barbarians
?

I do 3 by default, unfortunately though 2 is probably the best.
1 will allow us to see good settling sites. 2 gets us contacts. 3 and 4 net us more gold at the risk of losing scouting warriors.

And I may be able to switch to an archer, spear, or warrior, for next turn. However, we're already paying for unit upkeep. I will make a granary unless a reasonable protest can be made.

After comments are made, I'll try CBob's pre-turn analysis, though we do only have 5 units, 1 town, and 0 contacts.

 

[Elephantium]

re: settling, I'll post a dotmap tonight.

 

[Elephantium]

Red is the dot already mentioned in this thread.
The light green dot isn't where I'd settle right now - I'd focus on both blues first. However, it looks like a good spot to settle in the medium or long term.

I've added black dots to show a rough ICS pattern we might eventually go with while still allowing our early cities to be well-placed.

Edit: I'd avoid popping the huts we've already uncovered - we can easily pop them with culture instead.

As for strategy, we can use all the contacts we can get.

 

[mr_2_you]

is there some reason we're not mining the BG next to the river just SW of our capitol?

i know we're only size 1 right now, but from the screnshot, we're growing next turn and will lose the river commerce bonus if we work the non-riverside mined grassland. (i feel like phaedo now).

 

[CommandoBob]

is there some reason we're not mining the BG next to the river just SW of our capitol?

I forgot about the river bonus after the first BG was mined and roaded.