CBob03 Germans in Tu-tus

[CommandoBob]

But if you want free upkeep workers, just prevent the captured towns from growing and build workers there. Since they ought to stay foreign (unless we are unlucky and they assimilate (how ironic)), we'll get free upkeep slaves, er... foreign workers.

I remember the first time I built a slave. I was little upset and shocked. After all, I spent all that time to build a.....slave? Then I realized that it had only cost 10 gold to make that slave and it had no upkeep, so why was I complaining? A normal worker cost 10 gold to make and 1 gpt for upkeep. This slave pays for itself in 10 turns with the free upkeep. And no warfare needed to keep adding more slaves.

So, yeah, let's keep the Arab cities and deliberately set them up to stay small and make slaves. We don't want to grow these citites very large, size 2 or 3 at the most.

We may want to rename them to something like 'Slave City Mecca' or something (anything!) to indicate what their purpose in life. I know I could forget between now and my turns what these cities are supposed to do.

 

[Elephantium]

Err, I don't actually think we should set up the Arab cities as slave factories. That land is a prime location for settling moderately productive cities, and personally, I'd like to see us include that area in our "main" group of cities.

OTOH, I do have to admit that the idea of being able to build lots of slaves is pretty nice.

 

[mr_2_you]

Err, I don't actually think we should set up the Arab cities as slave factories. That land is a prime location for settling moderately productive cities, and personally, I'd like to see us include that area in our "main" group of cities.

i agree with the pachyderm on this one.

 

[CommandoBob]

We can do both, if we plan to do it.

Consider this:

We build 4 slaves from each Arab city. We need them because they are cheap to maintain and can be ganged together to get tasks done. Six slaves in a stack work as fast as three German workers in a stack.

After each city builds it's fourth slave, we stop slave production and start to make 'core' city improvements, whatever we think that might be.

This gives us a good bunch of slaves to help improve our holdings, which will get larger as we expand.

And once that is done, we can treat the captured cities as normal core cities.

 

[CivActuary]

We can do both, if we plan to do it.

Consider this:

We build 4 slaves from each Arab city. We need them because they are cheap to maintain and can be ganged together to get tasks done. Six slaves in a stack work as fast as three German workers in a stack.

After each city builds it's fourth slave, we stop slave production and start to make 'core' city improvements, whatever we think that might be.

This gives us a good bunch of slaves to help improve our holdings, which will get larger as we expand.

And once that is done, we can treat the captured cities as normal core cities.

lurker's comment: Will that only work if you capture the citites when they are size 5? (getting 4 slaves out of them before they decrease to size 1 and you start building the pop again) I don't see a recent screenie but Trib stated the arabs would only have one size 5 city by the time you captured it.

 

[Tribute]

CivActuary is quite right.

I think you have a good idea of this, but you might be forgetting that even foreign cities will immediately create assimilated individuals when they grow. We probably would only get 1 slave out of a few of them (size 3 at start) and 3 out of Mecca. Since you can't get the last foreigner to become a worker (can't make a worker in size 1) and lose 1 population upon capture, foreign workers = Pop size before capture -2. That is, unless you want to abandon the towns. I'd have no problem with that (Workers=Pop Size before capture -1). We could then replace them with our settlers in good locations. This strategy is increasingly better than razing if population size of the captured town increases. (So it'd be nice to wait.)

Wow, that sounds interesting. Instead of razing, we'd keep these Arab towns in their locations until we are able to replace them. Then we just extract most of their population as workers while taking maybe 1 gpt out of each town until its abandonment. We'd also get to use them as temporary bases and temporary territory power that we can use to prevent others from declaring war on us. There are negatives like flips and the need to defend those towns from barbarians and AI, but I think the risks are acceptable.

These are probably the ravings of a very bored person. I don't think that in the age of settler building, we're going to get many > size 3 towns. However, we could save this idea for later when we take over a different civ in the Middle Ages.

 

[Elephantium]

Several civs have quite a bit of gold, and I'd kind of like to sell a bunch of techs - better for us to have the gold than for the AI to squander it. Plus, if all the AIs are on an even footing techwise, we're less likely to get a runaway AI.

...however, if we do that, we're more likely to see an AI research Currency before us. That doesn't bother me much; we can just buy it from them or research it pretty quickly ourselves. Besides, it's in our interest to get to the MA ASAP (Feudalism and Engineering bridges will help us a LOT). What does everyone think?

Edit: Also, I've found a way to make HFH into a 4-turn settler factory. I'll post instructions and some screenshots tomorrow.

 

[Elephantium]

Bump: I need team input before I'll feel comfortable finishing my turnset - do you all agree that we should sell our techs, or would you rather try to maintain a tech lead?

 

[Ansar]

Several civs have quite a bit of gold, and I'd kind of like to sell a bunch of techs - better for us to have the gold than for the AI to squander it. Plus, if all the AIs are on an even footing techwise, we're less likely to get a runaway AI.

To be honest, runaway AI's don't come up on Monarch level.

...however, if we do that, we're more likely to see an AI research Currency before us. That doesn't bother me much; we can just buy it from them or research it pretty quickly ourselves. Besides, it's in our interest to get to the MA ASAP (Feudalism and Engineering bridges will help us a LOT). What does everyone think?

Well, we could work together with the other AI's (especially with Osman - since he's the other Scientific civ that we know of).

Edit: Also, I've found a way to make HFH into a 4-turn settler factory. I'll post instructions and some screenshots tomorrow.

That sounds like a really good thing. Great find!

 

[Tribute]

For things like Education and Military Tradition, I'd keep the tech. If it's expensive and the AI will research it with high priority (like Feudalism), I'd sell it. If it's useless, like Chemistry or Monotheism, I sell it whenever they'll give decent cash. But seeing as how the AI must be in Monarchy at best, would they give lots of gpt? And if it's a really backwards civ, I'd just sell the techs for as much gold as possible.

Oh, and do we ever gift money/techs to the other AI? We might want some to be polite to prevent wars and stuff. At least an early gift will reduce their chances of making unwanted war on us for the rest of the game. If you're planning to sell techs and want more gold, a gift of 100 gold to them first would probably serve the purposes of peace and acceptable tech selling. (Of course, I don't recall if the benefits are negligible. There must be a war academy thing on this, right?)

 

[Elephantium]

Pre-turn:

We're a little short on Workers.
MvB is building a reg. Archer. I change this to a Harbor.
Change Herbert Brun to a rax (it will complete this IT).
why aren't we letting FD grow? It's currently building Workers in sync with its growth from 1-2.
There are three Archers wandering around - what is their mission? Should I send them off exploring, or should I start forming a stack for the assault on Mecca?

IT:

HFH: Settler->Settler
Ernst Richter: Archer->Archer
Herbert Brun: rax->Archer
Arabs and English start ToA.

Turn 1 (730 BC):

Going back to SipTheSoup's dotmap, I'm going to settle 1SW of the green dot first. The green dot itself is on a BG, and settling there opens another BG for HFH, and a third BG just *might* give us a 4-turn settler factory.
I move our eArcher away from the mountain near the dyes; a barb warrior is standing there, and I'd rather attack him in the forest than across a river onto a mountain.

IT:

Russia warns us about our Curragh. We apologize for the "mistake".
RW: Worker->Archer
Georg Hadju: Archer->Granary (I'd like to turn it into a 6-turn Settler factory).
Greeks start ToA.

Turn 2 (710 BC):

I move the Archer away from Georg Hadju to join our war stack, then realize that we need a second MP there. I turn up the lux slider to 10% (sci to 80) to avoid a riot there.
Switch FD to a Warrior. It's better for our cities to not be stuck at size 1.
JSBach founded next to HFH. Making Warrior.

IT:

Heinz Chur: Archer->Archer (MM for growth)

Turn 3 (690 BC):

I had moved a Warrior out of FD in order to free an Archer elsewhere, but a barb horse just appeared out of the fog. We move back in.
Sci slider back to 100%, no risk of riots.

IT:

The Arabs warn us about our Archer near Medina. We promise to move.
A barb horse suicides vs. our eArcher near the dyes.

Turn 4 (670 BC):

I fiddle with HFH a bit. It's going to be tricky to get it into cycle.

IT:

RW: Archer->Archer (we're now making 2-turn archers!)
Helmut Lachenmann: Rax->Archer
FD: Warrior->Rax

Turn 5 (650 BC):

Lux slider to 10% to prevent a riot in Heinz Chur (Lit still due in 2).
Change Franz Ignaz von Beecke to a Warrior.
Looks like Greece and Sumeria traded techs last turn. Greece suddenly has 113 gold.
I'd kind of like to sell some techs, but I'll wait on the team.

Trades:
Philosophy to Celts for 74 gold.
Phil to Greece for 114 gold.
Phil to Ottomans for 63 gold.
Phil to Arabia for 64 gold.

IT:

The Dye Road is complete!
Japan suggests that we remove our troops. We apologize for the mistake.
Inca commands that we recall our troops. We apologize for the mistake.
Arabs start work on the Mausoleum.

Turn 6 (630 BC):

Fiddle with HFH. It's going to require some finesse to get running.
MM Ernst Richter to finish the archer next turn.
Sci slider to 50%, Lit due in 1.
Lux slider to 0, no riots pending.

Rats, Japan has over 250 gold, and we have nothing to trade them for it.

IT:

Greece comments on our troops near Sparta. We will move them out of his territory.
Lit->Currency (13 turns at 100%)
RW: Archer->Archer
Heinz Chur: Archer->Spear
Moritz Eggert: Archer->Archer
Ernts Richter: Archer->Archer
JSBach: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 7 (610 BC):

Eastern Curragh meets the Americans. They have horses and iron, 1 gold, and 9 cities. We're up CoL, Lit, Polytheism, and Construction.

IT:

HFH: Settler->Settler.
von Beecke: Warrior->Warrior

Turn 8 (590 BC):

Fiddle with HFH - after the current settler is built, the factory will be running. I MM to ****** growth by one turn to give us the shields needed to finish the settler at the right time.

IT:

Sumerians warn us about our explorer. We promise to move.
America also complains. Again, we apologize.
RW: Archer->Archer

Turn 9 (570 BC):

Zzz...

IT:

Greece demands that we leave their territory. We comply.
Sumerians start Mausoleum.

Turn 10 (550 BC):

Oops. I miskey the Settler's move and send him one square away from where he's supposed to be. He's supposed to settle W of Felix Draeseke and NW of Richard Wagner.
HFH is all set to be a 4-turn settler factory - the current cycle is taking five turns, but I arranged that at the start of the cycle.
Georg Hajdu, von Beecke, and Heinz Chur can all be 3-turn worker pumps or 6-turn settler factories with some tweaking. I suggest that they start on granaries soon (I also suggest that von Beecke build a worker after its current warrior completes).

 

[Elephantium]

The 4-turn settler factory in HFH:

Turn 1:

Size 4, 6 food in the bin, no shields towards the settler.

Citizen assignments:
3 mined BGs, 1 irrigated wheat.

Gives a total of 4 extra fpt and 7 spt (6 after corruption).

Spoiler :

On the IT, the city grows to size 5, the citizen gets auto-assigned to a forest, and 8 shields get applied to the settler.

Turn 2:

Size 5, 0 food in the bin, 8 shields towards the settler.
Citizen assignments:
3 mined BGs, 2 irrigated wheats.
Gives a total of 6 extra fpt and 7 spt (6 after corruption)

Spoiler :

On the IT, the city adds another 6 shields to the settler for a total of 14 so far.

Turn 3:

Size 5, 6 food in the bin, 14 shields towards the settler.
Citizen assignments:
3 mined BGs, 1 irrigated wheat, 1 mined grassland.
Gives a total of 4 extra fpt and 8 spt (7 after corruption).

Spoiler :

On the IT, the city grows to size 6. The new citizen is auto-assigned to the forest, and 9 shields are contributed to the settler (total of 23).

Turn 4:

Size 6, 0 food in the bin, 23 shields towards the settler
Citizen assignments:
3 mined BGs, 2 irrigated wheat, 1 mined grassland.
Gives a total of 6 extra fpt and 8 spt (7 after corruption).

On the IT, the settler completes, shrinking the city back to size 4 and sending us back to Turn 1 in the cycle.

It's kind of a fiddly process, so as we move forward PLEASE make sure you adjust HFH every turn.

In general, the three red rings should always be worked. One of the green rings should always be worked.
The blue ring is where the governor will auto-assign the new citizen. The white rings represent where citizen should be assigned at sizes 5 and 6.

I hope this is clear, but let me know if you have any questions! I was pretty happy to figure this out

 

[Tribute]

To maximize these benefits, I suppose we also ought to road that forest and possibly improve Moritz Eggert so that it does not disrupt our cycle. While the CXC looks really bad to me, the 4 turn settler factory looks much better than a 5 turn one.

It's nice how much stronger and richer we look. Maybe in the next set war can be declared. I'm not too sure about making our main cities worker factories. They could produce military instead and an occasional worker/settler. We ought to use the odd flood plains (very corrupt and shield poor) towns make the workers. (and possibly whip a few reg units for MP)

Oh, and shall we get the horses as a base nearer the Arabs? or the iron, which would be connected to the empire by the future flood plains towns? Getting the iron would be very aggressive settling while getting the horses would be less useful since we'd get them anyway.

 

[Elephantium]

At the start of my turnset, I felt like we were a little low on workers - now we're definitely low. Using one of the cow towns as a worker factory - and RW as a 5-turn combo Archer/Archer/Worker factory - will help us catch up.

I'd also like to see us use the cow towns as 6-turn settler factories if possible - there's a LOT of empty land to settle, and one 4-turn factory just won't be able to fill it fast enough.

Also, I think we have enough cities producing military that we'll be able to take out the Arabs - they're "weak" compared to us.

I completely agree about roading that forest once we can spare the worker turns. We could also use a few more roads leading from RW towards the Arabs.

 

[CommandoBob]

Looking good!

And a nice tutorial on how to run a settler factory.

I see we have 11 cities but I couldn't count the workers on the screen shot (and I haven't opened up the save yet, sorry).

I know it will be a juggling act, but we need to have 1 worker for every city. At least that ratio, perhaps even as high as 2 workers for every city later in the game.

Without looking at the game, I favor the concept of worker/settler pumps. On how to work them in here, in our situation, I think that needs some discussion and planning.

In other random, non-ordered observations, it looks like we can add one more city in the SW before we hit tundra. We can either expand towards the Arabs, which is great step forward for the next war OR we can expand to the NE, towards Michael von Biel, which is somewhat isolated. I think building towards the Arabs is the better way to go.

Is it too early to start a prebuild for the Forbidden Palace? Probably right now, but it could be done after the Arabs are history.

In the upcoming Arab war, are we planning to capture or raze/resettle? IIRC, we plan to purge the Arabs from the game, so we don't have to worry about flipping. Resisters could be a headache while we try to eliminate the Arabs, which is more the focus of my thoughts. To pacify the resisters trouble we have to station troops in the city, which means fewer attackers.

Of course, if our culture is greatly better than the Arabs, we'll have some citizens that will gladly welcome the regime change.

 

[Elephantium]

I don't think we can build the FP yet - we have too few cities!

As for culture, we're behind all the other AIs...for now.

 

[Tribute]

I think capturing is fine. You still have to heal anyway. And it only takes 1 or 2 turns to heal. At any rate, you still get to keep the road of the town and can use that to advance. Also, you heal faster, so that helps too. I never find taking over territory bad. (And with the captured town, you can see further into the fog and avoid/prevent archer attacks from roads leading to the next towns by positioning to attack first.)

 

[mr_2_you]

i'll get the save and play tonight. hopefully, i can handle the factory!

 

[CommandoBob]

Just so we know where we are:

Roster
CommandoBob - warming up
Tribute
SipTheSoup
Elphantium - just played
mr_2_you - UP!
ansar - on deck

 

[mr_2_you]

i was not able to play last night, but I will play tonight!!!