Chinese, Japanese, and Korean - Language

Most useful language?

  • Chinese

    Votes: 8 61.5%
  • Japanese

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • Korean

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Ainu

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13
What's with all the naysayers telling the OP to give up on language learning because it's hard? That's an excuse to simply give up? Even worse, that's an excuse for you to try and shoot down a dream of his?

Where does the assumption that he'll only be studying in his home country come from? He specifically states he's thinking of picking up language study in university - plenty of opportunity for studying in an appropriate country. He also expressed an interest in travel to said countries. The basic Japanese I learned in a classroom in California sure made both traveling in Japan and meeting Japanese travelers elsewhere a whole lot more rewarding.

Do any of you have an opinion on his actual question about the advisability of any of his choice of languages?

I say go for it, Mango Elephant. Ignore the naysayers. I haven't regretted any of the foreign language study I've done, even in languages I can no longer remember much of. And if you can find somewhere to study Ainu, jump at it. I speak a smattering of some very obscure languages. Native speakers of such languages get a HUGE kick out hearing a foreigner speak their tongue.
 
Don't bother with any of it unless you are going to live in those countries.
Only way you'll properly learn is immersion.

I must've made my OP unclear. My main objective in learning an East Asian language is not necessarily fluency, but rather a respect and interest I've had for the region since I was in elementary school. Although in the long term fluency would be the (not necessarily every obtained) goal, in the short term I'm more interested in learning the language for my own sake - if that makes sense. Me taking Chinese, Japanese, or Korean isn't something I'm going to put off until I can study abroad, because like I said, I've wanted to take one of them for a long time.

The purpose of this thread is exploring which language should be taken, from a variety of criteria. Japan and China's cultures don't really influence my decision, because I have a great respect for both of them - unless, of course, one country is significantly more xenophobic than the other. The actual semantics of the language is more important. The mention of the viability in the business world was just me thinking long term, because of course I'd like to think I could go "the whole hog."

As for the choices in the poll, Chinese is hands down the most useful: up and coming power, spoken by more people, spoken in more countries. It's a tonal language, so that can be hard to master, but most native-speakers will be able to work around your mistakes based on context. Its writing system is a beast to master, but it will allow you to communicate to some extent across multiple languages/dialects. Its biggest advantage to a learner is that its grammar is very simple - no verb conjugation, noun declension, similar syntax (subject-verb-object) to English.

That's very interesting! Do you think Japan as a power is going to become less relevant in the future?

Korean and Japanese are VERY similar linguistically. They have essentially the same grammar and syntax. This can be a real challenge to English speakers to learn. Verb conjugation addresses not only tense (past-present-future), but different situations (confirming a fact, explaining a relationship, substituting for conjunctions, and on and on) and levels of respect (casual, polite, deferential.)

Jesus, that sounds like a nightmare.

Learn something cooler, I can teach you Spanish, or maybe you'd do better by learning Navajo.

Navajo is my mother tongue, so I don't need to learn it again, silly!

Chinese, specifically Mandarin, is the most useful (next to Spanish and French). At least where I live due to the proximity of the two casinos and an Chinese-American population in the area. In listening to Chinese, I still can't grasp it's tones and find Korean and Japanese more easier.

Where do you live? Yes, Chinese tones are very difficult! My friend is fluent in Mandarin, and so when an exchange student came from China (who didn't speak English) she was given the task of looking over her at school. She told me very clearly how to say "Hello, my name is _____, what is your name?" in Mandarin, and yet the Chinese girl still couldn't tell what I was trying to say! I suppose pronunciation must get easier with practice, though.

Mango - Do you speak any other languages besides English currently?

I speak a little bit of French but that's all.

I guess I’ll offer my advice as an English guy who has spent a considerable amount of time learning Chinese. I’ll generally stick to answering your second question. I lived in China a few years, learned Chinese and now I’m working as an interpreter/translator. Obviously being in China gave me an advantage but it is not enough. I’ve met foreigners who have lived there for years, some even have Chinese families, but still can’t speak more than a few utterances. They create for themselves English bubbles. I had to create a Chinese bubble, and you do it the same way whether you are in Bejing or New York – simply put: chuck your English crap away and get Chinese crap. You like listening to music? Do it Chinese. You like games? Play them in Chinese.

That's very interesting but makes sense. I will definitely have to try to create a "language bubble". Japanese music can be very good, hopefully Chinese is just as good, too. What with going to the gym, running, and studying there will be plenty of opportunities to listen to foreign sounds.

You are very lucky to have lived in China, which I'm sure has given you an invaluable perspective. I very much appreciate your input and will try to learn from your experiences.

For the classic immersion grandmaster see www.alljapaneseallthetime.com. Written by a guy who got fluent (and I mean real fluent, not ‘I can order a beer’ fluent) in Japanese while in America. Also find a blog called Korean in Kuwait if you can. About a guy who successfully learned Korean in Kuwait of all places.
It can be done. These two differed in methods and outlooks but they shared a lot in common. They both had a strong clear motivation. They both believed they could succeed. They both used native materials from the beginning.

Thanks for those resources! They sound very interesting. I will have to read them.

Since you’re not learning the language in the target country you are going to need something to speak to and to correct you. My advice would be to find a native tutor. There are so many Chinese students in Western universities now that this is not a problem. It’s probably best to pay them rather than do a language exchange but it shouldn’t be very expensive. In the UK I hear 10 to 15 pounds an hour is the going rate. And of course, if you happen to be male, a pretty Chinese/Japanese tutor can get you turning up for classes regularly.

Now that's something I never thought of. I will have to look into that in college.

Characters are made up of different component parts. We learn the basic components and then when we see two of these components joined up, we create a story to help remember the meaning. It sounds more complicated than simply remembering the Character in the first place but trust me, you will save hundreds of hours this way.

The best book to get you started: Remembering the Hanzi by Heisig for Chinese (simplified)
Remembering the Kanji for Japanese.

I will remember that! And I will look into getting that book.




What China had to offer me was something different. A political system than not only matches that of the West but surpasses it in many ways. If it was not for my interest in China I would never have had the motivation to get past phase one

So you studied Chinese because of Chinese politics? That's very interesting, I've never heard of anyone who did that before. I'll definitely have to look into that when I get the chance.

I’ve been rambling on for a bit too long but I would just say if you really want to do it then just do it. You don’t need to be a genius by any stretch of the imagination. You just need to put in the time. Do check out AJAAT, and Sinosplice. They say it better than I ever could.

Here are some Chinese websites you can look at if you have the time:

www.youku.com - Chinese youtube
www.Tudou.com – Chinese youtube 2
QQ – Chinese MSN
www.weibo.com - Chinese Twitter

The first two you can just randomly click on a few videos. And if you complete Heisig, you’ll be surprised at how fast you can use and enjoy the second two.

Now I like those videos! Thanks a lot for helping me get started. :)

I say go for it, Mango Elephant. Ignore the naysayers. I haven't regretted any of the foreign language study I've done, even in languages I can no longer remember much of. And if you can find somewhere to study Ainu, jump at it. I speak a smattering of some very obscure languages. Native speakers of such languages get a HUGE kick out hearing a foreigner speak their tongue.

Thanks! :) That means a lot!
 
I must've made my OP unclear. My main objective in learning an East Asian language is not necessarily fluency, but rather a respect and interest I've had for the region since I was in elementary school. Although in the long term fluency would be the (not necessarily every obtained) goal, in the short term I'm more interested in learning the language for my own sake - if that makes sense. Me taking Chinese, Japanese, or Korean isn't something I'm going to put off until I can study abroad, because like I said, I've wanted to take one of them for a long time.

The purpose of this thread is exploring which language should be taken, from a variety of criteria. Japan and China's cultures don't really influence my decision, because I have a great respect for both of them - unless, of course, one country is significantly more xenophobic than the other. The actual semantics of the language is more important. The mention of the viability in the business world was just me thinking long term, because of course I'd like to think I could go "the whole hog."
If you're doing it for yourself, then choose whichever one has the sound you most like.
Mango Elephant said:
Navajo is my mother tongue, so I don't need to learn it again, silly!
How was I supposed to know that?
 
Come the revolution, the Party shall force you to learn Navajo.
 
I'd be fine with that. Navajo is the language that you can't tell lies in, right? Or is that Elvish?

Elvish?

I don't think it's possible to not be able to lie in any language. That sounds like one of those linguistic urban legends, sort of like the one about how Eskimos have twenty different words for snow.
 
I'd be fine with that. Navajo is the language that you can't tell lies in, right? Or is that Elvish?

Elvish in the Eragon universe. If you told a lie you died. It should be noted that the Eragon universe was literally created by a 16-year old.
 
Elvish in the Eragon universe. If you told a lie you died. It should be noted that the Eragon universe was literally created by a 16-year old.

My sixteen year old conworlding self takes offense to that. :mischief:

(Granted his conlanging attempts weren't that much better than what you see in Eragon)
 
Immersion can be difficult even if you're living in that country. I'm trying to learn Kurdish but at my job I speak English all day. I do have to speak Kurdish every day at least a little but sometimes you don't have to know that much of a language to get by. Like in Turkey I knew people who had lived there for years and could barely speak any Turkish. It helps that I often hang out with people who don't know English and that not very many people here know English.
 
I agree. My step grandfather was Polish, came to England shortly following WW2, and quickly married my grandmother, who "taught" him English. He never returned to Poland and died after, I dunno, 40 years. But his English was not all that good. He could understand perfectly (I think) and make himself understood as much as he needed. Yet despite 40 years of "total immersion", his English skills left a great deal to be desired.

It's simply not enough for an adult learner to rely on immersion for learning a foreign language. You have to devote a lot of time and effort into finding out how the language formally "works". Never mind the almost impossible task of learning how to pronounce the thing correctly.

Ironically, my step grandfather received a visit from a Polish relative after about 30 years. And it seemed he'd largely forgotten how to speak Polish as well. So he was finally left with about 1/2 a language in total, I suppose.
 
I guess my Dutch will end up being only a half language, even after years ^^.
Don't need to speak it anywhere (everyone speaks English), don't need to put effort into it (it's nearly German), and I just use it for fun...maybe once a month.
 
Grammar in jap/kor isn't that hard. You litterally cannot mess it up because its too flexible. But using things in right context is the most annoying thing. All that are forgiven if your a foreigner though. They don't expect you to avoid all the social gaffes.
 
Hmm... on non-native English speakers grappling with English... well, my family (the ones who are 1 or 1.5 generation American immigrants) are a mixed lot. Most of my grandparents have relatively good English.

All of my grandparents came from well-to-do families, i.e. the scholar-gentry class typical of the Sinosphere, and because of this they all had a relatively easy opportunity to learn English/French and be forced to interact with people who knew English/French (whether it was due to their job, or for reasons of prestige/"ooh look I'm sophisticated and high class"). My maternal grandmother, for instance, went to college in the US and was the principal of an international English school in Vietnam, and as such the ability to communicate in English was very important. My paternal grandfather, meanwhile, was the spokesperson for first the foreign ministry of S. Vietnam (or whatever it was called) and later S. Vietnam's ambassador to Japan; in such a job, where he would've invariably interacted with English-speaking diplomats and other such folks, the ability to maintain a good level of English fluency was required.

Ultimately, due to this, all my grandparents have a good working level of English even before they came as refugees to America. My paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother in particular; while their English wasn't "perfect", they have little trace of an accent. In a sense they are sort of like one of those people who are fluent in English, yet you can tell they aren't native/didn't speak it form a young age. Thus my grandparents have been more or less able to handle communication in America much more easily than other immigrants - not only did they know the language, they knew how to use it (for instance it's one thing to know how to talk, but it's another to be able to, say, negotiate the price of a car or understand which politician suits your ideolkogy better). However, because they spent much of their adult lives in Vietnam, and here in America many of their friends and family are Vietnamese, their knowledge of Vietnamese is pretty much intact.



As for my parents and uncles/aunts, since they 1) were already exposed to English from an early age due to the social status of my family in Vietnam before we fled; and 2) came to the US at a very young age (my youngest uncle was in fact 6 when he came here), their English is for the most part almost flawless, as befits most 1.5 generation immigrants anyways. There is still the faintest hint of an accent, but you can't really tell that it's foreign unless you listen ridiculously closely. However, it does vary from uncle to aunt and parent. My second oldest uncle, for instance, came to America in his late teens, in contrast to my father who came in his early teens. For this reason, my uncle's English is always so stilted and formal compared to my father's - it's not just a matter of personality (which is true), but also because my uncle came when he was older, so he didn't have as much time to, say, go to school and get accustomed to the language the way my dad did.

Conversely, when it comes to Vietnamese, oddly my parents and most of my aunts/uncles have a level of competency equal to that of my grandparents while still maintaining fluency in English, which is slightly unusual for 1.5 generation immigrants, who either do well in one or another depending on their circumstances. This seems to be due to their background, too; coming from a traditional, scholar-gentry family, even if they weren't forced to learn literary material, say, they naturally had an inclination to study it either out of a sense of obligation or just for personal pleasure.

As for me and my brother, and our generation, we are much better in English, but we are okay at Vietnamese too, compared to other second generation Vietnamese, some of whom don't understand a word of it at all. The reasons are: 1) we went to Vietnamese language school on the weekends when we were young, which forced us basically to constantly review the language; 2) we spoke mostly Vietnamese at home growing up (amazingly we accepted it even though we could've in theory only spoken ENglish to our parents and grandparents and nobody would misunderstand anybody; though nowadays oddly for some reason my dad speaks more English with me than Vietnamese). Granted, its "American" accented Vietnamese, and its pretty messy, but it does the job.



Ultimately my whole point here is this: language competency depends a lot on your personal situation, your personal ability, and a whole variety of factors. Immersion, and immersion in the right place, is important. If I didn't speak and hear a lot of Vietnamese, I wouldn't know anything. If both sides of my family didn't have a literary, "high-class" background, I wouldn't have knowledge about random aspects of more formal, literary Vietnamse. If my grandfather didn't have to deal with English-speaking diplomats all the time, he wouldn't have known how to carry a pleasurable conversation with random people in America. If my dad didn't hang out with all those black kids in the first American high school he went to, he wouldn't have been able to pick up on the (now outdated) African-American slang he can use to communicate with African-Americans his age.

Stuff like that.



Also, as a side note, since my grandfather was under the ambassador to Japan for a few years, my father and hs siblings also lived there. THough they went to an English international school, they did pick up quite a bit of Japanese (language-wise and culture-wise). My father apparently was semi-fluent by the time he had to leave, though he has forgotten most of it. However, if he were to study Japanese again I think he'll pick it up in no time. Additionally, since he lived in Japan at that tender, pre-teen/early teen age, when you learn your first curse words, when my dad gets pissed the first curse words that come to mind are Japanese (so he's told me). Anyhow, if you're young and more susceptible to influences, it can be easier to pick up languages.
 
Immersion can be difficult even if you're living in that country. I'm trying to learn Kurdish but at my job I speak English all day. I do have to speak Kurdish every day at least a little but sometimes you don't have to know that much of a language to get by. Like in Turkey I knew people who had lived there for years and could barely speak any Turkish. It helps that I often hang out with people who don't know English and that not very many people here know English.
It's simply not enough for an adult learner to rely on immersion for learning a foreign language. You have to devote a lot of time and effort into finding out how the language formally "works". Never mind the almost impossible task of learning how to pronounce the thing correctly.
I guess my Dutch will end up being only a half language, even after years ^^.
Don't need to speak it anywhere (everyone speaks English), don't need to put effort into it (it's nearly German), and I just use it for fun...maybe once a month.

I also find it's hard to be motivated to learn. The extent to which I am not learning German is actually quite embarrassing at the moment, but then there's really very little incentive. I didn't come here for the express purpose of learning another language, and I have no more language courses to complete for which this immersion would boost my marks. My classes are all in English, and almost everyone I speak to speaks English fluently. I used German today to get a haircut, but beyond those sorts of interactions there's absolutely no necessity to know any language other than English here, and I imagine in an awful lot of supposedly non-English-speaking places. If I barely need German to live perfectly well in Germany, when I leave the country am I ever likely to meet someone who does speak German but doesn't speak English? Probably not. So it'd simply be an academic pursuit to spend too much time worrying about it. And making the effort to set up artificial obstacles for myself may not be the best way to spend my time; surely there would be other academic pursuits that are more useful? Not that I spend a great deal of time on academic pursuits nowadays, but supposing I did, there's a whole lot to learn that'd be of more interest and use to me than German.
 
A couple of times I've met Kurds who have lived in Germany and don't know English. They tried to speak German with me, I guess they think, oh it's a European language, they can't be that different.
 
Currently studying Mandarin and Japanese simultanously. Since I feel now comfortable both reading and speaking Chinese, I'm more actively studying Japanese and in less than 6 months I've achieved an intermediate level. Sometimes I've thought of studying Korean in the future (perhaps in late 2015 or 2016, who knows) and I've always thought that knowing how to say a couple of things in Ainu would be cool and perhaps that will eventually happen too.

So my answer is: why not all of them?
 
Anyhow, if you're young and more susceptible to influences, it can be easier to pick up languages.

This is true. And how can it be otherwise?

Isn't there evidence that the human brain undergoes some fundamental changes in the first year or two of life which means that the languages one is exposed to during, and before, that period are very much more easily learned than any language one tries to learn later in life?

For example, certain sounds which register to the neonate brain but which aren't features of the native language no longer register in the two year old brain. The brain, as it were, trims out a lot of unnecessary connections.
 
This is true. And how can it be otherwise?

Isn't there evidence that the human brain undergoes some fundamental changes in the first year or two of life which means that the languages one is exposed to during, and before, that period are very much more easily learned than any language one tries to learn later in life?

For example, certain sounds which register to the neonate brain but which aren't features of the native language no longer register in the two year old brain. The brain, as it were, trims out a lot of unnecessary connections.

Yeah, I vaguely recall this from one of my linguistics classes.


I think there's also a case for it later on, for young teens vs. adults, at least from my family's experience. My dad said all the Vietnamese refugees who came at the same time as he did, but were a couple of years older such as my uncle, as a rule of thumb never could master English like he did, or anyone younger than him. Even if they spoke "perfectly" there was still this stilted and formal aspect of their speech that the younger folks like my dad didn't have a problem with. My dad was around 14, my uncle about 17. Both young, but from my dad's observations the difference was more than enough.
 
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