Civics Balance Discussion

[Leoreth]

Okay, I'm just going to post the entire civics roster now. I'm pretty content with it right now.

GOVERNMENT
Dynasticism (low): +1 happiness per military unit (+4 max), +20% Wonder production
City States (high): +1 food per specialist if city works at most 7 land tiles, +100% number of cities upkeep
Theocracy (medium): +2 unit experience with state religion, +1 happiness with state religion, double Priest slots, +1 unhappiness from non-state religions
Autocracy (medium): can draft 2 units, +50% Great General rate, +2 happiness from Barracks
Republic (high): +50% Great People rate, +100% Cottage growth

ORGANIZATION
Vassalage (low): +2 unit experience, +2 commerce from Forts, +1 happiness from Castles
Absolutism (high): +40% production and commerce in Capital
Representation (medium): double Statesman slots, +2 happiness in largest cities, +1 happiness from Courthouses
Totalitarianism (none): no city distance maintenance, +1 happiness per military unit (+4 max), +1 espionage per specialist
Egalitarianism (high): double Artist, Scientist, Merchant slots, +1 production from Towns, unhappiness for civs without Egalitarianism

LABOR
Slavery (medium): can sacrifice population to finish production in cities
Agrarianism (low): +25% worker rate, +1 production from Pastures, +1 commerce from Farms
Capitalism (medium): +2 commerce from Towns, +25% trade route yield, can spend gold to finish building construction
Industrialization (low): double Engineer slots, +1 production from Workshops and Watermills, +10% production
Public Welfare (high): -50% corporation unhappiness, +2 research per specialist, double production for Hospitals, Universities

ECONOMY
Guilds (high): +1 commerce from Workshops and Watermills, +1 unhappiness from Banks, double production for Forges, Markets, Grocers
Mercantilism (medium): no additional commerce from foreign trade routes, +50% commerce from trade through Capital, +1 commerce from Plantations and Slave Plantations, double production for Custom Houses
Free Market (low): +1 trade route, +25% corporation commerce
Central Planning (high): +1 production per specialist, +1 food from Workshops and Watermills, -1 commerce from Workshops, Watermills and Towns, double production for Factories and Coal Plants
Environmentalism (medium): -30% unhealthiness, +2 commerce from Windmills, Watermills and Forest Preserves, +1 happiness from Public Transportation, double production for Recycling Centers and Hydro Plants

RELIGION (+1 unhappiness for non-state religions unless stated otherwise)
Pantheon (medium): can build classical wonders, +1 happiness from Pagan Temples
Organized Religion (high): +25% building production in cities with state religion
Scholasticism (medium): +40% Great People birth rate in cities with state religion, can train missionaries with Monasteries
Fanaticism (low): +25% unit production in cities with state religion, no non-state religion spread
Secularism (low): no unhappiness for non-state religions, +10% research, can build wonders with state religion requirement

MILITARY
Mercenaries (medium): can spend gold to finish unit production, rushed units start with the Mercenary promotion, double production for Walls
Levy Armies (low): extra free unit upkeep, units are produced using food, double production for Castles
Standing Army (high): +2 experience for Land units, +1 production from Forts, double production for Barracks, Stables
Naval Supremacy (medium): +2 experience for Water units, +25% production of water units, +1 production from Fishing Boats and High Sea Fishing Boats, double production for Harbors, Lighthouses, Drydocks
Multilateralism (none): +100% war weariness, +1 gold upkeep per military unit, +1 free specialist per city

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Upkeep? As a rule of thumb late game civics should be low or none unless you only want teeny tiny countries to run them, while making the upkeep of an earlier civic high or at least medium is a surefire way to get people to switch out of it in the mid to late game.

I don't like the synergy between Industrialism and Guilds.

Good Marx no negative commerce for improvements from Central Planning! Do you want this to become the next 1.11 Agrarianism? Just remove the extra food from watermills, that never made sense anyway.

Also I think Industrialism should provide prodcution from trade routes rather than give another hammer to the W improvement pair.

Here is a funny idea for Environmentalism: How about instead of 2 commerce it gives 1 food and 1 commerce for forest preserves?

 

[Leoreth]

Upkeep? As a rule of thumb late game civics should be low or none unless you only want teeny tiny countries to run them, while making the upkeep of an earlier civic high or at least medium is a surefire way to get people to switch out of it in the mid to late game.

Edited into the previous post.

I don't like the synergy between Industrialism and Guilds.

Good point, although it's not inherently problematic because Guilds kind of loses its other benefits as the game progresses. To me, Guilds also represents an economic system where distinct sectors are heavily regulated and competition is suppressed, which I can also imagine in a more modern context. The name Guilds should probably be replaced anyway because it is identical to the tech, but I can't come up with a good alternative that encompasses this idea, is also applicable later in the game, and still works for when the civic becomes available.

Good Marx no negative commerce for improvements from Central Planning! Do you want this to become the next 1.11 Agrarianism? Just remove the extra food from watermills, that never made sense anyway.

I think it needs some kind of significant drawback for how good its benefits are.

Also I think Industrialism should provide prodcution from trade routes rather than give another hammer to the W improvement pair.

I don't really want to start toying with that.

Here is a funny idea for Environmentalism: How about instead of 2 commerce it gives 1 food and 1 commerce for forest preserves?

I think no universal improvement should ever equal farms in terms of food.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I think it needs some kind of significant drawback for how good its benefits are.

High upkeep! There! I don't think it's that powerful anyway. Once you have industrialized it loses half its effect unless you are continually expanding, which imo fits it very nicely.

I don't really want to start toying with that.

I really think food and/or production from trade routes should be included in some shape and/or form, and this is as good as any.

I think no universal improvement should ever equal farms in terms of food.

They don't? +1F+1H+1C vs +2F is imo a good ratio, especially when two thirds of that yield only come from a very specific niche civic.

 

[Vectors]

Upkeep? As a rule of thumb late game civics should be low or none unless you only want teeny tiny countries to run them, while making the upkeep of an earlier civic high or at least medium is a surefire way to get people to switch out of it in the mid to late game.

I don't like the synergy between Industrialism and Guilds.

Good Marx no negative commerce for improvements from Central Planning! Do you want this to become the next 1.11 Agrarianism? Just remove the extra food from watermills, that never made sense anyway.

Also I think Industrialism should provide prodcution from trade routes rather than give another hammer to the W improvement pair.

Here is a funny idea for Environmentalism: How about instead of 2 commerce it gives 1 food and 1 commerce for forest preserves?

In the case of Industrialism and Guilds pretend the guilds are labor unions.

 

[Leoreth]

They don't? +1F+1H+1C vs +2F is imo a good ratio, especially when two thirds of that yield only come from a very specific niche civic.

Oh right, forgot that you necessarily have Biology at this point.

 

[NerfCothons]

Upload so we can tinker!

 

[ezzlar]

I think it looks good. Will be fun to test.

Capitalism is the only one I feel a bit unbalanced compared to its alternatives. Commerce/trade is so strong in Civ.

 

[Leoreth]

Upload so we can tinker!

I'm still ironing out some creases, it'll be soon I hope.

Capitalism is the only one I feel a bit unbalanced compared to its alternatives. Commerce/trade is so strong in Civ.

I agree. I could see the trade modifier move to Multilateralism at the exchange of a bump to low upkeep.

 

[Hojsimpson]

I'd much prefer a -50% or -25% unit production under pacifism.
When you'd want to switch to pacifism you would already have units(at least one per city due to happiness issues) but then you wouldn't want to build more units. -1 gold seems too much although the free specialist is too good for a military civic imo.

 

[Leoreth]

I'd much prefer a -50% or -25% unit production under pacifism.
When you'd want to switch to pacifism you would already have units(at least one per city due to happiness issues) but then you wouldn't want to build more units. -1 gold seems too much although the free specialist is too good for a military civic imo.

And that's the reason why it would not be an effective downside.

 

[jackelgull]

I believe multilateralism should have a bonus to commerce from foreign trade routes. Either that, or it should give you a diplomatic bonus of +1 with other civilizations. I mean, the extra specialist is good, but not that good. There should be something else brought to the table.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Could we talk about the elephant in the room please? With Mercantilism reworked we were this close to having no civics which are more likely to harm your empire than benefit it, and then Leoreth goes and ruins Central Planning. This is gonna be bigger than watermills if it releases like this, and you can bet I would create another rebalance modmod.

 

[jackelgull]

I too would rather see Central Planning lose the food bonus to watermills than get the commerce malus to those improvements. Especially towns, that will hurt central planning's viability alot.

 

[Hojsimpson]

I too would rather see Central Planning lose the food bonus to watermills than get the commerce malus to those improvements. Especially towns, that will hurt central planning's viability alot.

Central planning makes civs like Russia and the Siberian lands super-productive. You can compensate the lack of commerce by building all buildings faster and then building research/wealth. After you get Levee you can have maybe 5 cities in Siberia with more than 30 hammers per turn, or even more than 50.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Central planning makes civs like Russia and the Siberian lands super-productive. You can compensate the lack of commerce by building all buildings faster and then building research/wealth. After you get Levee you can have maybe 5 cities in Siberia with more than 30 hammers per turn, or even more than 50.

Yes? That's the point? The glorious Soviet Union was super productive, that no one can deny. Once all buildings are completed commerce becomes more important than production anyway, especially with processes nerfed, so in the long run free market will always outperform Central Planning, which is fitting imo.

 

[jackelgull]

This might work for Russia which won't be hit as hard by the commerce, but what about other civs which may have more towns in their territories?

 

[Leoreth]

Adopt Capitalism? Worked well for China.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Why you little...
And yes, Russia WILL be hit hard by this commerce penalty, considering how many riverside tiles it has. With this Central Planning it would be better off just spamming farms on every river tile and workshops on dry tiles, putting the surplus population to work as super productive specialists.

How many times do we need to say it? Making a civic reduce the yield of an improvement is not a good idea gameplay wise, never was, and never will be. Just buff the other economy civics instead. Mercantilism would be oh so perfect to reduce colonial upkeep. Free Market could give some sort of gold bonus to synergize with Capitalism's rushbuying ability. Environmentalism could give extra food for forest preserves. All of these are better options than acting on those silly ideas you got from reading Ayn Rand.

 

[Leoreth]

Atlas: *shrugs*