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Civilization depiction elimination thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Liufeng, Apr 21, 2017.

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  1. Manifold

    Manifold ModderProtectionAdvocate

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 21
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =15 (18-3) too insignificant
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18
    Germany = 16
    Greece = 18
    India = 13
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 20 (19+1) Justification is not necessary
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 20
    Sumer = 9
     
  2. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 21
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =15
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18
    Germany = 16
    Greece = 18
    India = 14 (13 + 1) A high population, religiously diverse civ is a great way of representing India and fits together really well from a gameplay perspective.
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 20
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 20
    Sumer = 6 (9 - 3) Built too much around the Epic of Gilgamesh and too little around, well, Sumer.
     
  3. The Islander

    The Islander Chieftain

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 21
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =15
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18
    Germany = 16
    Greece = 18
    India = 14
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 21 (20 + 1) The bonuses make it feel like Rome.
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 17 (20 - 3) They should have some sort of way of getting a religion more often, 'cause if you don't get one, they're a very bland civ. Also, i would like to see them have a stronger exploration game.
    Sumer = 6
     
  4. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Prince

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22 (21 + 1) Arabia explodes in the medieval era scientifically, religiously and militarily just like they did in real life. They combine science and religion with a solid UU that's only good for a short time. This represents Islam's spread perfectly. Just wish the LA was more clear or trade focused.
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =15
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18
    Germany = 16
    Greece = 15 (18 - 3) I dig that they went for a more governmentally focused Greek representarion this time, but how are they never granted a wonder building bonus of any kind? The Acropolis is a lousy bonus that is neither specifically greek nor useful from a gameplay perspective (historically they were designed for defense, yet there's no defense bonus). The only reason for an Acropolis to provide culture or be unique to Greece would be if it was the Acropolis, in which case it should be a wonder.
    Also, the leader situation is a mess. Alexander is represented by Macedon, yet Athens and Sparta are both just 'Greece'? Why is Gorgo even a leader with all the great greek options available? Why even show off the multiple leader potential if it won't be expanded upon until the first expansion?

    India = 14
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 17
    Sumer = 6
     
  5. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =15-3=12 - Somewhat stereotypical to me. Amazon jungle, carnival... Pedro II is definitely a good choice, his agenta symbolizes him in real life (he loved arts and he was in touch with lot of great people like Richard Wagner or Victor Hugo, for example) and Minas Geraes isn't bad either, but still, Amazon and carnival...
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18
    Germany = 16+1=17 - Downvoting someone because you are enemy with him? Come on! Barbarossa's agenda is maybe hard to satisfy, and little bit annoying, but it's very fitting, since Barbarossa had to fight with a lot of city-states in Italy, and he seems them as part of his Empire, so that's why he doesn't want you to send envoys or conquer them. And depicting Germany as industrial powerhouse is great thing. At least it's a change from the militaristic powerhouse from Civ V. And U-boat isn't that bad.
    Greece = 15
    India = 14
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 17
    Sumer = 6
     
  6. Returning Lurker

    Returning Lurker Prince

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 18-3=15
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 14
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 17+1=18
    Sumer = 6

    Treasure fleets, check! Colonialism, check! Religious bonuses, check! Reconquista, check! Big bad conquistadors, check! Armadas, check! Powerful leader constantly punched in the face with setbacks and misfortune yet never breaking that code of machismo, check! Yup, this is definitely Spain alright!

    As for England you've got a bonus that focuses on a very narrow slice of its culture that wasn't the main driving force of their culture but the byproduct of a different and much more prominent part of English society at the time (imperialism, colonialism, and the so called "White Man's Burden"), the wrong kind of redcoat for the leader they are attached to, and a dockyard which gives an appropriate bonus to ships but which doesn't/didn't actually mean much in English culture or society.
     
  7. Liufeng

    Liufeng A man of his time

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 15 - 3 = 12 While the redcoats and Royal navy are british symbols, the cultural part is much less. They should have focused them on the Industrial and scientific revolution, which are the real symbols of the british nation, and not museums.
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 14 + 1 = 15 We may not like Gandhi, but this civ is really well done, and truly feels as peaceful as spiritual.
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 18
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 6
     
  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 12
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 16 (15+1) I don't get the down votes. In my opinion, this is done well. Just not the fitting leader, but that has been discussed at length and so I'll ignore it.
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15 (18-3) Much better than civ V's depiction of Poland, but still doesn't feel really right for me: feels way to gamey instead of historically inspired.
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 11
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 6
     
  9. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    I agree very much that Spain should be in !

    But taking Philips II as leader ???

    He is the guy that got from his daddy, Charles V, King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, an enormous empire... and made little of it.
    Made wars with everyone to no avail and is a classic example of the decline of the overstretched imperium going down.

    The couple Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragorn are imo much better representing the glorious Spain.
    By marrying each other and concluded in 1492 with the conquest of Granada, they had united/shaped Spain, including (if I am right) the word Espana.
    Also in 1992 Columbus, send by them, discovered America and in 1493 the right to colonise the world outside Europe was decided at 50/50 between Spain and Portugal, sanctioned by the pope.
    Spain was the first empire where "the sun never set". Conquistadores poored out, treasure fleets poored back.
     
  10. CPWimmer

    CPWimmer King

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 13 = 12 + 1 My favorite of the ones under 15. I agree withe some of the points of the haters, but it is still a better Civ in terms of representation then some of the other options in this point range. It is much more deserving to stick around then the likes of Brazil, Kongo, Macedon, Sumer and Scythia.
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8 = 11-3 Same reasons as before - easily the worst "historic" representation of a civ currently on the board in my opinion, (although Sumer is a close second).
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 6
     
  11. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 13
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 16 + 1 = 17 (Other than Gandhi being selected as leader for India (*again*), it's an appropriate representation of what India is known for.)
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 6 - 3 = 3 (When you ask a Civ VI fan what Sumeria is known for, they will answer "war carts!" instead of some remark about agriculture, mathematics, etc. This is because the developers made Sumeria the Gilgamesh civ, just as they made Macedon the Alexander civ)
     
  12. Returning Lurker

    Returning Lurker Prince

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    I'm not saying Philip was the best leader, I'm saying that he is the most reflective of Spanish culture and ideals. He was born into fame and fortune, yet every single thing seemed to go wrong for him at every given opportunity even when he made the right choices (lost 3 previously healthy and young wives, lost control of England due to the random death of his second wife, lost many fleets to freak happenstance, lost The Netherlands due to unfortunate timing of his failed invasion, etc), and even in the face of the universe seemingly determined to kick him into the ground he didn't back down or slow his roll he continued to fight and strive without losing his spirit. He is very much a reflection of the "machismo" attitude of masculine strength and determination in the face of any odds or circumstances prevalent in Spain and passed onto its colonial empire, for better or worse.

    Secondly, while I don't consider Philip the best leader, and in fact I think Isabella would've been the better pick (would've DEFINITELY traded Catherine's appearance for Isabella's for female representation), I think the civilopedia really does undersell him and constantly focuses on his failures without taking into account any extenuating circumstances and barely acknowledging his successes. It brings up his failed invasion of England without bringing up the fact that it was delayed for a year due to Francis Drake (mostly by luck) managing to sneak past the entire Spanish seaborne navy all the way around Spain until they hit Cadiz (near Gibraltar and almost as far away from England as possible for Iberia) and were able to wipe out many of his best warships while they were trapped in harbor a-la Pearl Harbor, then they failed to mention the fact that once the fleet got going they were absolutely battered by freak storms in the middle of July that forced many of Philip's heaviest galleons to break formation or even dock completely leaving his fleet out of position and poorly equipped when they finally arrived, and of course the moment they DID arrive the winds shifted in England's favor giving them a decisive advantage. Then while it mentions HIS failed invasion it completely omit's ENGLAND'S failed counter invasion which was equally as disastrous despite having everything go in England's favor. It mentions him repeatedly going bankrupt yet doesn't mention all the riches he brought into Spain from his funding of colonial expeditions and how he was the one who kept digging Spain out of debt through prudent trade, loans, and good old fashioned imperialist exploitation of the colonies. Finally while it does mention his funding of the arts it really undersells its influence by only mentioning his stash of private pieces in El Escorial rather than all the public works funded around Spain. While Philip certainly made a lot of mistakes (invading England in the first place was a bad move, even if things went well for his fleet and he conquered the country it would have still locked down a huge chunk of his armies and navies for decades that would've gained him absolutely nothing but religious brownie points) the civilopedia seems to go out of its way to screw him over. Typical :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  13. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 13
    Germany = 17
    Greece = 15
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 14 - 3 = 11 (Mainly because of the portrayal of Alexander but also because we already have two Greek leaders)
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 3 + 1 = 4 (Feel obligated to save Sumer here. This civ is so ancient that it's hard to do it justice and I think the Epic of Gilgamesh slant is a cool idea. Plus they are just really fun to play if you like domination games.)
     
  14. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 18
    England = 13
    Germany = 17
    Greece = (15+1)=16 They acknowledge the City-State nature of the ancient Greeks pretty well, don't care much for an unknown like Gorgo as a leader for Sparta though, and Sparta founding Athens in-game seems strange. At least they tried.
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon =(11-3)=8 Really feels like Firaxis wanted Alexander in the game, but decided against making him a Greek leader due to shared Civ ability, then created a Civ centered entirely around Alex's conquests. Did the Macedonians really gain culture and science from capturing Persian cities? Is it an accurate representation of the Hellenistic fusion of the period after Alex's death?
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 4
     
  15. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    I like your post :)
    And yes Philip was kind of unlucky.
    BTW I am Dutch, perhaps that taints my vision on him and I just read the civilopedia story and that is imho a very anglo-saxon version (oops).
    The Dutch revolt that started in 1568, way before the Spanish-English war (1580-1604), cut the heart out of the tax revenues of Spain from his most prosperous "normal" posessions in Europe. The Spanish troops had no chance in the watery soil of the Northern Netherlands, including city defenses where land lower than sealevel was flooded, but too shallow for boats). Just like the Tanks and Heavy Armor of the USA had no chance in the jungle of Vietnam.
    When the Dutch Republic lost Antwerpen in the South back to Spain in 1585, the plan of Spain became to send over the Armada to Antwerpen where hired land troops would be waiting in simple boats to sail in those boats under protection of the Armada to England. (Just like with D-Day in WW II).
    However. When the Armada did arrive in 1588, these troops never embarked because the Dutch fleet was blocking the harbor of Antwerpen. And yes, the big bulky, all to heavy, Spanish ships would have no chance in the shallow waters near the coast, the eb and tide, the sandbanks.... horror scenario.
    The Armada, still waiting for the land troops that never came, were attacked by the English fleet. Deciding to go back by rounding north of Scotland was a weak decision. There are always storms there.
    The strategic blockade of Antwerpen, the only sea-going harbor of the Southern Netherlands, was continued as economical warfare. When the rich merchants and bankers left Antwerpen to continue their business in Amsterdam, the economy of the Spanish Netherlands was permanently crushed. => little tax revenue for Philip.

    Perhaps Philip II missed one important quality that his father Charles V had: to know where to do some water in the wine and be less strict.
     
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  16. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 15 (18 - 3) The UA mostly amounts to a generic production boost, and when it does influence your city planning, it actually discourages you from building the riverside farms that allowed ancient Egypt to thrive.
    England = 13
    Germany = 18 (17 +1) Another simple yet impactful UA and one of the game's most distinctive UIs.
    Greece =16
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon =8
    Persia = 11
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 21
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 4
     
  17. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Prince

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    This elimination thread is moving very slowly. I think there might be too many going at once.

    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 15
    England = 13
    Germany = 18
    Greece =16
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 13
    Macedon = 8
    Persia = 8 (11 - 3) Civ VI has a bad habit of basing entire civs after single moments in history (or single rulers). Persia seems to be centered around the Battle of Opis. Unfortunately, one battle doesn't summarize the Persian empire or Cyrus the Great very effectively.
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 22 (21 + 1) Rome is well designed all around. Trajan is a fresh take and superbly executed.
    Russia = 20
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 4
     
  18. oedali

    oedali King

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    America = 23
    Arabia = 22
    Australia = 15
    Aztec = 22
    Brazil =12
    China = 15
    Egypt = 15
    England = 13
    Germany = 18
    Greece =16
    India = 16
    Japan = 24
    Kongo = 10 (13-3) Inability to win religious victory is a huge handicap
    Macedon = 8
    Persia = 8
    Poland = 15
    Rome = 22
    Russia = 21 (20+1) Love the extra land, cheap lavras, and extra science/culture from trade routes!
    Scythia = 8
    Spain = 18
    Sumer = 4
     
  19. oedali

    oedali King

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    Shouldn't this thread be renamed to just "Civilization Elimination Thread" then? Based on the description, that's what this is.... when you say "civ depiction", it signals more narrowly just the underlined criteria. I understand this thread is broader than that.
     
  20. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

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    "Civilization Elimination Thread" would imply that it's about which civs are strongest (that's this thread), while this thread focuses on which civs are best designed.
     
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