Civilization List

All civs would be playable in Custom Games and Specific Scenarios.

If we do this right and it takes off well, then others will also make scenarios for us. We might even be able to recruit Jeelen for that. Their scenarios are very good for other Mods.
 
After speaking with Berenthor (he has been quite busy) he also agrees with the change for the Dwarves. They will now be listed as Broadbeams & Firebeards. We will remove Ironfists. Perhaps they will be added in for a scenario at some point.

Also taking into account is Elda Kings Suggestion of "Quendi" as a replacement name for "Elves". It will make the name more unique and "Tolkienish" (bad word, I know).

Current List:

How Civs stand at the moment without any other information.

Spoiler :
Civilizations:

Quendi:

Noldor: House of Fingolfin
Noldor: House of Feanor
Teleri
Sindar
Vanyar

Good Men:

Numenor
Arnor
Gondor
Edain

Neutral Men:

Rohirrim
Northmen
Dunlending
Isengard

Evil Men:

Haradrim
Easterling
Angmar

Shadow:

Mordor
Angband

Dwarves:

Longbeard
Broadbeams & Firebeards


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* = In regards to the Edain, we can break them up for a scenario at some point.

* = In regards to the Dwarves, we can add these other Fathers for a scenario sometime perhaps (Blacklocks, Ironfists, Stiffbeards & Stonefoots).


Also a question for the Coders. Should the Names of the Civs and Leaders, etc be all Capitalized for you? If that would make it easier I can modify the list in such a way without a problem.

I have also asked T F, since he was great in helping with the City lists, to help out with the proper accents for the Civ list.

Finally, Shadow Civs are still under discussion. 1 Civ or 2. Or, 1 Civ for core campaign and 2 available for Random and Scenarios.
 
Sorry for my absence for a while, I am now catching up with a lot of the discussion of the previous few days (there's a lot, so that means this mod is really alive and kicking :)). Quendi definetly an improvement so no argument there. I read through Elda Kings arguments and I think he raises valid points. I'm still personnally in favor of two civs but I can understand his considerations. It is a difficult decision I think.

Some things I though of to remedy some of the problems raised by having two shadow civs: If we don't mind a partial what if for the mod, some concepts could be brought to other ages like vampires and werewolves, keep ballrogs as something of the first age maybe and dragons can develop maybe into the second age (first only crawling dragons, then walking and then flying and maybe some differences in firebreating dragons and cold dragons). Maybe we can apply a similar trick that people raced for the elves (very good units in the beginning but very costly upgrades later on and find some balance there). This way Angband is an early civ in the sense of when the civ is at its best without denying it the power to even win later on in the game. The development of orks, urucs, trolls, etc. could still be done by Angband. Another difference we can maybe emphasise is that Sauron used a lot more evil men than Morgoth. If I remember my Tolkien correctly now from the top of my head, Morgoth used no (or almost none) men in his serves. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, because I'm doing this from memory. About the hero unit, it is indeed a shame not to have Sauron as a hero. If we go for the concept of limiting the shadow civ to one per game, Sauron could still be used as a hero maybe.

As for the civ list: I like it as it stands now. Definetly leave the witchking out of mordor (if we go with seperate civs) since he is the leader of Angmar. Make it a generic nazgul or something (or maybe even 8?) or no heroes for Mordor but give them 8 nazgul as national units (first on foot, than on horses, later upgradable to fellbeast?) or something that Mordor has to capture men and then he can "upgrade" them to nazgul (in the same upgrade order as before: foot-->horses-->fellbeast) to a maximum of 8 captured units he can convert.
Just spamming ideas here.
 
I can't really decide on one or the other. My main problem is that I don't know how we are going to implement the shadow units exactly.

I think I like the option offered by T_F about having one shadow civ, that starts as Angband and later goes over in Mordor. The exact workings of that should probably left to a next release and if we decide to it this way a single shadow civ is most wanted for now. Discussion how we want this should probably take place in another thread. That won't stop me from posting my ramblings here though, as it is relevant for this discussion and I can repost it once we start discussing the shadow civ at length.

>> One shadow civ is good, as there ultimately there was always one Valar behind it all. However, after the first age, his direct involvement with the world stopped and his second in command took over. What I would like to propose is a shadow civ that starts with Melkor/Morgoth as a leader which can build Balrogs, Dragons, Werewolves, etc. These would be powerfull units and as long as Melkor is in charge they can be build (some to a limit (Balrogs eg) some indefinately). A hero unit, Sauron, can (must) also be build. However, upon reaching the second age, Melkor leaves this world (his king unit disappears), the Hero Sauron becomes king and there's a leader switch from Melkor to Sauron (with different traits as well). With Sauron as leader, the shadow cannot build the 'Melkor' units anymore, that is, no Dragons no Balorgs etc. The existing Balrogs and Dragons either go barbarian immediately or have a chance to go barbarian every turn(Shadow must be friendly with Barbarian for this to work), to show that Sauron doesn't have the influence over these creatures that Melkor had. With Sauron as a leader, the Shadow has the capability to create/invent new evil creatures and move forth along the techpath in general and some evil techs in specific.
What I like about this, is that it enables the possibility to stay with Melkor throughout the game (don't advance to the next age, his units are quite good and if he stays in the first age, he doesn't have much else to do then build units, so his number should make up for any quality problems). It also enables a Sauron only game through starting in the Second Age of the Stars. And it follows the book quite closely, which, though we want a 'what-if'-Arda, has its merits in this case.

<<End of rambling
 
Those are both great ideas Berenthor & Sengir.

Not for this release, but mentioned so it isn't forgotten:

An idea I had, that I think we could use for some scenarios is allow The Shadow of Melkor/Morgoth to be able to create a Colony which becomes Mordor and thus we can have our two Shadow Civs. Only allow them to be able to do this. I have an idea for a Numenor civ along these lines as well.
 
We need to make this decision and finalize it as quickly as possible. It is holding up the rest of the Mod to be honest, because so many things depend on it.

So lets get this done.

We have 2 great ideas on what can be done. So the decision to be made is:

1 Shadow Civ or 2 Shadow Civs?

After that is decided, we can then decide on a proper implementation of how to incorporate it into the mod.

Also, Melkor/Morgoth used the Early ancestors of the Easterlings. They were not a huge part of his armies or plans however, I don't believe.
 
I want to hear some thoughts from the others about how they think the shadow as one civ should be implemented before putting my vote down. The thing I especially want to know is whether they think it better to have Sauron and Melkor both as leaders to be chosen, or that they would prefer a leader-switching-mechanism.

This would be the opinion for what it should be in the end (not in this version, because the leader switching might we a little much to put in).
 
Deffinatley only having 1 leader would be best. Your units would be dependant upon the leader you choose. Leader switching is something that would be a good Option (not forced - i.e. a scripted event and you can then choose upon the entering of the Second Age) for future releases.

I also want to hear everyone elses ideas.
 
One civ, one leader. I like the option idea too.

We should also have it so that if the Shadow is destroyed with Morgoth as its leader, it is popped up somewhere else on the map with Sauron as its leader.
There's an interesting victory condition idea for Good civs: Destroy both Morgoth and Sauron's incarnations of the Shadow civ. (Conversely, for the Shadow you could have remove or convert all non-Evil civs.)
 
Provided by T F:

Númenor (or Númenórë if you like Quenya)

Which do we want for the Numenorean Civ?

I like the Quenya one, but the regular one to make it Human Distinctive would be great too.

In regard to T F's above post. That is also a great idea. I never thought about that. Limit the units for Melkor/Morgoth and then when he is destroyed Sauron comes up with his own units he can build. He should get an advanced start however.

For an Arda Map Scenario Perhaps we could even have Mordor as a place that cannot be inhabited and he will apear there.
 
I could go either way about Númenor.

Deffinatley only having 1 leader would be best. Your units would be dependant upon the leader you choose.
What do you mean by this? In my opinion people should not be able to chose between Melkor and Sauron at the start of the game, other then starting in the Second Age of the Stars to start with Sauron. Sauron would be an unpickable leader for a regular start but you would be able to switch to him at the start of the second age.

Leader switching is something that would be a good Option (not forced - i.e. a scripted event and you can then choose upon the entering of the Second Age) for future releases.
Making it optional is good: that way people can choose to continue with Melkor (still getting some new stuff, but not as much new units as Sauron, but keep the ability for (some of) the old units) or switch to Sauron for all the new goodies (but loose access to most of the old stuff).
 
What do you mean by this?

The reason I felt this way was this way Sauron could be used as a Captain Unit. But, I suppose we could make it in such a way as if you choose Sauron right off the bat, then you could have the Witch-King as a Captain Unit then. But then we also run into problems with Angmar. I guess we could use Gothmog from the movies or The Mouth of Sauron as a Captain Unit for Sauron. I would be allright with that.


You know what, I think I like the Mouth of Sauron being the Captain unit for Sauron and Gothmog as a Hero Unit. Then you can have the Nazgul as National Units (8 of them). Or we could remove Angmar.
 
I like Mouth of Sauron as a better captain unit for Sauron anyway, and it still solves the conflict with Angmar.
Starting off as Sauron, if possible at all (I'm not sure I quite like it), should be available only to human players - the AI should always start as Morgoth (and should always switch to Sauron when the option comes up). I think that the Shadow's units should be the same regardless of which leader you are, and just slowly shift from Morgoth's favorite stuff to Sauron's (like I suggested earlier).

Númenórë wasn't quite a serious suggestion, but if people like it, hey.
 
Obsoleted units sound OK, but there's really no point if you have upgrades. Even if they don't upgrade, there'll at least be no point in building old stuff because the new stuff is better and won't take too much longer to build.
The idea I guess is that Morgoth's units upgrade to Sauron's units.

Though obsoletion implemented on a much wider scale would be interesting. That way battles in the First Age wouldn't be involving anything significantly weaker than Third Age units, and keeping First Age units alive throughout the game might be worth something (which is an odd - and unique - game dynamic). Since technically the First Age involved similarly strong if not significantly stronger units than the Third Age, it would be fairly accurate as well.
 
I figured you would no longer be able to build them because they were more powerful. You offset power with More units. Sauron also, did not create any Balrogs or have any Dragons under his command (that we know of). SO it makes sense that he wouldn't be able to build these units if he takes over.
 
That makes sense. Those should be obsoleted anyway, but that fits well into the large-scale obsoletion.
 
This conversation belongs more in the Units Thread. We should continue it there probably.

Decision Time:

#1:

Númenor (or Númenórë if you like Quenya)

Which do we want for the Numenorean Civ?

I like the Quenya one, but the regular one to make it Human Distinctive would be great too.

#2:

How many Shadow Civs will we have? This is extremely important as so many other decisions ride on this one! If we decide on 1 then we can discuss how to possibly incorporate Sauron. If we only go with a single Shadow Civ, then we will need to decide if Angmar will remain, or will it get sent to Scenarios or later builds of the Mod?

1 Civ: Angband

2 Civs: Angband & Mordor
 
#1: I'm fine either way. I like Númenórë better, but I also realize that that's by far not the most common name.

#2: 1 civ, morph from Angband in the early game to Mordor in the late game.
 
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