Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by 1SDAN, Sep 27, 2019.
Sorry if i'm spamming this thread, but is there a way to make Varietas Delectat compadible with this submod?
Taking opportunity about the recent comment about adding new civs, I will propose (another) one: the Xiongnu. Gameplay-wise, they would serve mostly as an early Mongols, making the ancient Chinese (and also hopefully Yuezhi/Kushan) games more fun and complex. Please note that discussing an ancient East Asian civ is quite out of my confort zone, so any further suggestions/comments/feedback about them are welcome.
Spawn/Location: 209 BCE/Luut Hot
Spawndate refers to formation of the Xiongnu confederation by Modu Chanyu. Alternatively, we can use an earlier spawn in 318 BCE according the wiki. The capital would be in the same plot of Ordu-Baliq/Karakorum (being renamed if controled by the Turks/Mongols) according this map. This link can help with other city names nearby, even though I'm not familiar with the geography and history in the area.
Leader: Modu Chanyu (classical age)
I couldn't find any descriptions about his appearance, so we can likely use any Ancient Central-East Asian LH. There is a LH available here in the download database specifically made for Modu, but honestly I've found other LHs that are better and more unique, such as this one (originally made for Bleda the Hun). I'm not sure about adding later leaders, even though Xiongnu rump states existed in Northern China until the 5th century CE.
For what I could read, tigers were symbols used by nomadic peoples/leaders in the region. I find particularly interesting this one, which was apparently made by the Xiongnu. About the colors, I frankly don't have any strong opinion.
Expansion stability: core in central modern-day Mongolia and historical in areas around it that correspond roughly to their historical extent.
UP: The Power of Nomads (Cavalry units starts with Mobility promotion, + 25% production for Light Cavalry units)
I have to confess that I'm not that satisfied with the UP, because it feels too much generic for any nomadic civilization. Nonetheless, it gives an useful bonus for the UHVs below.
UU: Guli (replaces Horseman, is a Light Cavalry unit and starts with Leadership promotion)
The Xiongnu were known by their horse archers, so the UU can replace this unit if we prefer. I chose the Horseman replacement because I found more unit arts for it and also to give an UU better at conquering enermy cities. RFC Asia and CivGold mods have the art. The name Guli was the title of Xiongnu army commanders.
UB: Ger-Tereg (replaces Stable, +1 production and +5% culture output)
I have to say that was really hard finding an UB to the Xiongnu and I'm still unsure about it. They were nomads (even though they built some cities) so we don't have much info about their buildings. The Ger-Tereg (reconstruction in the first image on upper right) are mobile yurts that were used by the Xiongnu. I feel that the UB seems too much similar to the Mongol (named Ger that also replaces Stable) and have to say that I couldn't find a proper art (Realism Invictus has several yurt-like buildings, but none seems really appropriate). CivGold uses one specific kurgan as UB, but again I'm not sure about it, giving that this kind burial mount was more related (and common) between more western nomads (such as Scythians and early Turks)
1) Heqin: succesfully make tribute demands from 5 different civilizations by 100 CE and make China your vassal for at least 50 turns.
2) The Great Nomadic Empire: be the largest civilization in the world in 1 CE
3) Lost Hunnic connection: conquer a city in Europe and India by 557 CE
UHV 1) refers to the complex relationship that the Xiongnu had with the southern Chinese dynasties and Heqin was the name of marriage treaties made while UHV 2) is related to the fact that the Xiongnu were one of the largest empires in history, which at their peak achieved an impressive 6,68% of all land area of the world. UHV 3) refers to the proposed theory that the Xiongnu were the ancestors of the Huns, both those who ravaged the Roman Empire and the Hephthalites in India.
Actually Xiongnu was earlier than 209BC. Don't know the accurate year, but in the Warring States Period it had become a strong nomad power in North China. Several Chinese Kingdoms such as Zhao, Yan and Qin had fighted with Xiongnu in about 300BC. So it maybe historical to move the spawn year earlier.
About the location it's more accurate to spawn in Hetao(the city of Baotou, or 1W of Baotou), in the DoC map it's a little closed to Beijing, but in history it's the first capital of Xiongnu, the Chanyu always lived there.
The flag, I prefer wolf than tiger. Wolf is the totem of Xiongnu.
The UP, UU, UB and UHVs are good enough. And I think there could be some flood plains in Xinjiang, to make Xiongnu more buffed.
It's certainly possible, but IDK how.
Anyone have a strategy for Nubia? Getting the core cities' population high enough to avoid collapse seems impossible.
Yes, I tried it
Andean Update Part 2: Wari and Tiwanaku
Leader: Malku Huyustus
Birth: 110 AD at Tiwanaku - 1SW Lake Titicaca
UP: The Power of Hospitality - Extra Production in the Capital. +1 Priest Slot from Pagan Temples.
UU: Sisqeno - Replaces Spy. Available at Priesthood. +1 Prophet GPP per turn while stationed in a foreign city
UB: Kalasasaya - Replaces Civic Square. Available at Construction. 1 Priest Slot. Costs 33% less production.
UHV1: The Great Andine Theocracy - Build the Gate of Sun and settle a Great Prophet in your capital by 900 AD
UHV2: The Multi-Cultural Empire - Have two cities with refined culture by 1000 AD
UHV3: The Splendor of Tiwanaku - Experiece two golden ages by 1100 AD
Leader: Wari Capac
Birth: 400 AD at Wari - 1W Cusco
UP: The Power of Terraces* - +1 Food on tiles adjacent to Mountains.
UU: Picta Aucac - Replaces Archer. 30% Withdrawal Chance. 25% City Attack.
UB: Colcas - Replaces Granary. +15% Production. +1 Land Unit XP
UHV1: Wari Arts - Acquire gold, dyes, cotton, and sheep and have at least 500 Culture by 900 AD
UHV2: The First Andine Empire - Build 3 barracks and colcas and connect your cities by road by 1000 AD
UHV3: The Great Centers - Have four cities with developing culture and 5 population by 1100 AD
*: The Incan UP has been renamed "The Power of the Andes".
New Wonder: The Gate of the Sun - Requires Corn, Cement. Costs 300 Production. Double production with Stone. +2 Prophet GPP. Great Person births require 50% less GPP.
I gotta say, finding adequate art for these civs wasn't as difficult as I thought it'd be, though I had to make their Flag and Civ Icons from scratch, which is really obvious from looking at the Tiwanaku. My go-to mods for art assets also contain a good amount of art for a Mississippi Civ- one which I've really wanted to make for a rather long time. If anyone suggests a good outline for them, I'd gladly convert the 3 Part Andean Update into a 5 Part Pre-Columbian Update.
<cracks knuckles> How does this sound?
Leader: Red Horn
Birth: 100 BC in Ohio/western New York (source of the Ohio River)
UP: The Power of Mshi-Ziibi (extra and for farms next to rivers) OR (trade routes provide and )
UU: Birdman (replaces Archer - free Shock promotion vs. melee)
UB: Effigy Mound (replaces Pagan Temple - gives +1 ).
UHV1: Hopewell Exchange - connect all of the tiles along the Mississippi River, Ohio River, and Great Lakes to your trade network by 500 AD
UHV2: Fort Ancient Culture - build Serpent Mound and 7 effigy mounds by 1070 AD
UHV3: Cahokia - build a palace and settle 2 great merchants in Cahokia by 1400 AD
This would also provide a new wonder:
Serpent Mound - requires Corn and no Iron, +2 Artist GPP, +1 free trade route for all cities connected by river
EDIT: changed start date from 100 AD to 100 BC, to coincide with the dawn of the Hopewell culture
Amazing news! This modmodmod has officially reached the point where the exe is now struggling under sheer weight of how many civs I'm haphazardly throwing into the game in my obsession with modding in every possible nation I can give myself an excuse to add.
Jokes aside, the exe apparently has a limit on how many players can be displayed on the civilization select screen, and is weirdly finicky about it. We are currently at 68 playable civilizations, and in the process of adding another I found that the exe crashes when trying to display 69 Civilizations on the selection screen. Adding a player slot and removing a player from being able to be selected doesn't fix the crash, but removing a whole bunch from being able to be selected apparently does.
Black magic aside, it is with great sorrow that I must announce that I am officially releasing a sequel to 3000 BC, aptly named 3000 BC Chapter 2. It has everything that 3000 BC has, except all Civs prior to 600 AD. Now, the PR firm staffed by a magic 8 ball and my brother have informed me that last sentence is highly likely to be misinterpreted, so let me reiterate this entire paragraph.
Voodoo hoodoo tossed away, massive remorse fuels my reveal of the follow up to ~54.77^2 BCE. Said follow up is sanctioned by myself and is titled a rather fitting ~54.77 BCE Electric Boogaloo. While identical to what you are used to in every practical way, the civilization select screen only includes civs from 600 AD onwards, thus making it a scenario dedicated to running 3000 BC games of 600 AD and 1700 AD civs.
In the coming update scheduled to be released at some undetermined point prior to the heat death of the universe, the 3000 BC scenario will be split between two identical scenarios: one which allows you to play as civs ranging from Egypt to the Turks, and the other allowing you to play as civs ranging from Arabia to Israel.
TL;DR In the coming update scheduled to be released at some undetermined point prior to the heat death of the universe, the 3000 BC scenario will be split between two identical scenarios: one which allows you to play as civs ranging from Egypt to the Turks, and the other allowing you to play as civs ranging from Arabia to Israel.
P.S.S. If I seem to be acting unusual, unfunny, or annoying, it is either because I'm always this way or I am suffering from an acute lack of sleep and am currently only still awake because of the tactile feedback of my meaty digits slapping against the keyboard and the fan of my laptop which I swear is getting louder by the seco
I got to try Tiwanaku and Wari. I had thought a long time ago that they would be interesting additions, and indeed they are! Thanks, @Krieger-FS and @1SDAN, for the design and implementation.
Here are some observations in no particular order. On Tiwanaku:
To build the Gate of the Sun, you need corn. But Tiwanaku doesn't have immediate access to corn. You need to conquer Wari or found a colony north to get it. Is that intended? Conquering your neighbor in particular doesn't feel like something you'd want to do considering the usefulness of having a neighbor around.
It looks like building the Pyramid of the Sun would help greatly with the 2 golden ages goal. In my two games, Teotihuacan failed to build it. Whether it does may end up being a random factor in making the UHV easy or hard.
The Sisqeno spy unique unit is very interesting! I'm not sure if the execution is as good as it could be (getting Great Prophet points in the capital feels gimmicky and there are no interface clues that it happens at all), but I like the idea of putting together espionage and religion. It fits what we know of Tiwanaku very well. In fact I think we could push the idea further. The Gate of the Sun could get an effect related to it. Successful espionage missions grant culture/GP points?
Random UP idea: The Power of Lake Titicaca: lakes get +1 production per adjacent mountain (would feel less out of the blue than the current extra production in capital. The priest slot in pagan temples is good, but to be honest I've always felt it should be a default ability of pagan temples.)
Maybe check the culture level of the 2nd UHV goal. I think it was 5000 culture per city on Normal speed, which I don't think is doable.
In general the religious and diplomatic theme of the civ is fun. It's tricky to make it work, though. Unless you ahistorically explore Mesoamerica, you have only 1 neighbor, which makes espionage/diplomacy very limited. Maybe adding the last civilization suggested by Krieger-FS, Chimú, spawning in 850, would be beneficial in that respect.
They are a little less interesting than Tiwanaku. It is a bit strange that two of their goals require culture, which you'd think fits Tiwanaku more. I feel like the culture requirement of the 1st goal could be dropped.
Implicit in the first goal is that you should conquer Tiwanaku as soon as possible, to get the sheep/llama. This means most of the game will occur without any neighbors, which is a bit sad. That would be another reason to add Chimú.
Also, interesting wikipedia quote: "The political relationship between the Wari and Tiwanaku has been compared by archaeologist Joyce Marcus to that of the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War: the two empires did not go to war with one another for fear of mutual destruction." This leads me to think that maybe the first goal should require a focus on building a multi-city empire very quickly, with no time to spare conquering Tiwanaku. Then a later goal would require to conquer them, at a time where they're possibly more powerful, making it more of a challenge.
I like the first goal about acquiring a few specific resources, but the other two feel a bit uninspired. I suppose that's inevitable considering we know next to nothing about Wari.
On the Incas:
I played past their spawn for a bit as Tiwanaku. They didn't do anything after founding Cuzco. Should they perhaps start at war with Wari and Tiwanaku? Although it's true that they didn't start expanding until the 15th c.
They're probably a lot of fun to play now that their gameplay involves more conquest. I'll be sure to try them.
By the way, it seems the Maya are always destroyed when I play later pre-Columbian civs. I suspect it's the barbarians razing Tikal. Maybe buff the Maya a bit?
If you want to add more pre-Columbian civs, I had plans, a long time ago, to add the Muisca (in Colombia) and the Zapotecs (at Dani Baa). If you'd like, I can dig up my ideas for both.
Fun Fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachacamac#Temple_of_the_Sun
Of note however is that building the Pyramid of the Sun won't help with the Tiwanaku UHV. Its effect can't bring the GP requirement below the base aka 2.
My idea with The Power of Hospitality was to reflect how the capital's economy was based on pilgrimage. Early on, I had +2 Commerce in the capital instead, but found that Tiwanaku was really struggling with Production, so I switched it.
Please do post as many ideas as you want. Do not be shy to flood this thread with all the best and worst ideas this game has to offer.
Haha yeah, there are many "X of the Sun" in pre-Columbian America, aren't there?
I didn't know you changed the Pyramid of the Sun's effect. That's fair, but it might be too weak now. Even with the original effect, it basically amounted to getting a free Great Person usable for a golden age only, or two if you end up getting two golden ages, which isn't that great. I wasn't super happy with the effect in the end.
Put like that, the Power of Hospitality makes sense, but perhaps naming it the Power of Pilgrimage would make the connection more obvious?
By the way, I played the Inca and I noted the following things:
It's more fun now than before! Conquering real civs is more challenging and engaging than conquering a few indy cities and founding the rest. Of course, your starting situation is more random now.
The tech rates would need to be reviewed. The Inca spawn with a tech deficit compared to its two neighbors. They should probably tech slower. Or the Inca tech faster; they need to discover quite a few techs for the tambos, Machu Picchu and markets, which means you can't turn off research fast enough to accumulate gold. At least that's what happened to me. (Did I mention I hate gold accumulation goals?)
The Wari tend to collapse quickly, which makes sense since they lose their capital upon the Inca spawn. Which is a bit boring, but also a problem because...
...collapsed civs give rise to cities that are defended with crossbows, which makes no sense in pre-Columbian South America and is very difficult to deal with. I managed to conquer the second Wari city just by rushing to attack them before they collapse.
The Gate of the Sun has no button (the pink square shows instead)
I'll post my ideas for the Muisca soon. I realized I don't have much for the Zapotecs but I'll see what I can do.
I didn't change any code regarding the Pyramid of the Sun as far as I'm aware, but in my testing I couldn't pop a golden age with it and only on GP. I'm going to look into this further.
An economy based on pilgrimages/seasonal tourism/etc is called a "Hospitality Economy".
I'll look into the crossbow issue.
The button appears on my end. I'll look into it.
I had to read this multiple times to really appreciate all that's going on in this post.
Yes to a Mississippi culture! That's one of my dream civilizations I'd love to see added to RfC, next to the Zulu and Sumeria!
Would it be possible to make it so that Sweden claims Stockholm from the Vikings instead of destroying it and settling it again?
Yes. Though making changes to Sweden would be up to Merijn.
I will probably not update my civs anytime soon. Feel free to make changes to Sweden yourself.
If need to add new civilizations increase here.
Separate names with a comma.