[RD] Clinton vs. Trump - USA Presidential race.

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Every ex-president commands enormous speaking fees should they choose to take the opportunity. It only shows up so strongly in Bill Clinton because, for one thing, he was the youngest former president to leave office in a century and a half without leaving in a box. So he had a lot of time to collect those fees. For another, he was among the poorer ex-presidents. He didn't have generations of Bush wealth to retire on, or even Reagan's movie star money.
 
LOL...right. Because the dirty House of Saud is pure evil top to bottom and has never donated a dime to any charity that wasn't connected to the United States Secretary of State.

Oh, wait.

Sultan bin Abdulaziz Al Saud Foundation.
Alwaleed Philanthropies

5 seconds on wikipedia:

However, little is known about its activities and priorities as those of other royal charity organizations.[1]

Certain writers such as Simon Henderson claimed that the foundation together with others, namely International Islamic Relief Organization, Human Appeal International and Qatar Charitable Society, has links with both Islamic charities and terror groups.[2]

Yes, the House of Saud is pretty close to pure evil in my view. The fact that they donate to charity means nothing to me. On its page the Clinton Foundation claims to be concerned with women's rights for example. Are women's rights really something you believe that members of the Saudi Royal Family concern themselves with? Given how Saudi Arabia is run, I flatly do not believe that any charity work done by anyone in the Saudi government comes from a desire to "do good in the world" and I think anyone who does think so is dangerously naive.

Yeah, your claim is ridiculous.

I think you maybe don't understand what my claim actually is. I am not saying that the Clinton Foundation itself is corrupt, I'm just saying that the Hillary allowing donations to the foundation to influence what business was handled by State is not the proper way for people in government to conduct themselves. I have already said I think most of the claims about the Clinton Foundation are ridiculous and unfounded.

I read that piece, and I figured out what bothers me about these attacks. It's arbitrary cynicism, it's biased criticism hiding behind a mask of smug indignation.

On the issue of access - do we know how many of those who gained access had no legitimate business that involved the State Department? I mean, I find it very hard to believe that if the Crown Prince of Bahrain says he wants to meet with the Secretary of State, that the Secretary would say no but for the CP's donation to her foundation.

This is just not an accurate portrayal of the charge. It isn't that simple, and it's not that people who donated to the foundation had no legitimate business with the State Department. It's that their business was almost certainly prioritized if they gave to the foundation. It is the same issue with campaign finance. There doesn't necessarily need to be personal corruption for massive donations by private interests to have a corrupting effect.

And yeah I'd say your first complaint applies well to the Republicans, but Glenn Greenwald's treatment of this is certainly not 'arbitrary cynicism' nor is it 'selective outrage.'

However, if we're going to cynically assume that all of these donations were solicited to give the Saudis and others access -

Again, this is a strawman. Your post here reveals a kind of simplistic view of the matter that forcefully reminds me of idiotic right-wing defenses of the Citizens United campaign finance regime. You don't need this kind of crude self-enriching corruption to know that massive flows of cash into election campaigns from private interests corrupts the political process. Similarly, you don't need clear evidence of quid pro quo (not that you could really get such evidence unless someone was stupid enough to put something in writing, or you could read a person's mind) to know that the whole business with the Clinton Foundation is not how you want public officials behaving.
At the very least you seem to recognize it is politically dumb for Hillary to do this kind of stuff, which is a start.

Gori the Grey said:
For good reasons, of course: all the good it does in the world. But also, I think, because connectedness is so directly beneficial to the two of them.

See, I really don't think that either Clinton perceives it in terms of personal benefits to them. I just think, ideologically, they see nothing wrong with conducting politics in this way. And I believe that's a problem. I have no idea what Tim thinks about Citizens United, but I hope that metalhead will at least appreciate that defending Clinton's conduct here makes it much more difficult for the mainstream Democrats to mount a credible attack on Citizens United.
 
See, I really don't think that either Clinton perceives it in terms of personal benefits to them. I just think, ideologically, they see nothing wrong with conducting politics in this way.

When I said "directly beneficial" I didn't just mean financially, although I know I had just mentioned the speaking fees. I think the Clintons like being global power brokers in the way their foundation lets them be.

It involves looking past the nation-state. But Hillary is asking to lead one particular nation-state, and the world is still largely configured as a collection of nation-states.

It's the relation between power at the global level and power at the national level that I'd like to puzzle through more effectively than I have.
 
This is just not an accurate portrayal of the charge. It isn't that simple, and it's not that people who donated to the foundation had no legitimate business with the State Department. It's that their business was almost certainly prioritized if they gave to the foundation. It is the same issue with campaign finance. There doesn't necessarily need to be personal corruption for massive donations by private interests to have a corrupting effect.

That's kind of a dubious claim, though. "Their business was prioritized" - over what? I'd assume that the Secretary of State is going to prioritize causes she supports in the conduct of her job, which would likewise be represented in the work her foundation does as well. There is a large intersection between global charities and the Secretary's office generally; I think you'd be hard pressed to come up with a decent reason why her priorities would be different given the existence of the Foundation.

And yeah I'd say your first complaint applies well to the Republicans, but Glenn Greenwald's treatment of this is certainly not 'arbitrary cynicism' nor is it 'selective outrage.'

Sure it is. We can be cynical about the reasons for these donations, but not their solicitation. The Clintons are calculating enough to sell access to the Secretary (which isn't very calculating), but not calculating enough to promise extra access which she had no intention of granting in order to get more money. We can be upset that someone would take money from repressive regimes, but we aren't supposed to take the fact that it was spent on charity or the fact that the Secretary of State kind of has to be nice to them for strategic purposes, into account when deciding that this is a terrible thing she did.

The whole line of attack from liberals on this is absurd. "Repressive regimes OMG!!" Give me a break. Their money spends the same as everyone else's.

Again, this is a strawman. Your post here reveals a kind of simplistic view of the matter that forcefully reminds me of idiotic right-wing defenses of the Citizens United campaign finance regime. You don't need this kind of crude self-enriching corruption to know that massive flows of cash into election campaigns from private interests corrupts the political process. Similarly, you don't need clear evidence of quid pro quo (not that you could really get such evidence unless someone was stupid enough to put something in writing, or you could read a person's mind) to know that the whole business with the Clinton Foundation is not how you want public officials behaving.

It's not a strawman, that's exactly what she's being accused of, at least by Trump - intentionally selling access. It's a more interesting discussion about to what degree one can divorce oneself from these things, but one thing I will say, which goes to the whole campaign finance issue - the higher up one gets, the more money one gets from more sources, the less corrupting it is. Campaign finance at the House level is an absolute disgrace - candidates can and do get funding from one single interest. Of course it's going to influence them. Senators, probably in less contested races it's the same thing.

But you start talking about thousands of donors giving a lot of money - whose wins? You can't functionally divide your loyalties more than a couple different ways. At some point the donations are just noise. You keep soliciting them because you need the cash, you probably tell people things they want to hear, but it's absurd to think one's loyalties can be bought for a few million dollars, when they're collecting hundreds of millions of dollars from so many different donors. Even subconsciously, there is no way to assign loyalties based on donations.

None of this is to say we needn't reform campaign finance, or that Citizens United isn't an absolutely idiotic decision. Or that the optics of the Foundation aren't exactly as bad as you're saying. But a lot of critical voices are making arguments that just don't make a whole lot of sense.
 
Yes, the House of Saud is pretty close to pure evil in my view. The fact that they donate to charity means nothing to me. On its page the Clinton Foundation claims to be concerned with women's rights for example. Are women's rights really something you believe that members of the Saudi Royal Family concern themselves with? Given how Saudi Arabia is run, I flatly do not believe that any charity work done by anyone in the Saudi government comes from a desire to "do good in the world" and I think anyone who does think so is dangerously naive.



I think you maybe don't understand what my claim actually is. I am not saying that the Clinton Foundation itself is corrupt, I'm just saying that the Hillary allowing donations to the foundation to influence what business was handled by State is not the proper way for people in government to conduct themselves. I have already said I think most of the claims about the Clinton Foundation are ridiculous and unfounded.

Thing is that there is no solid indication that ever happened. There's no one who made a donation to the Clinton Foundation and also met with the Secretary of State who stands out as "Wow, why would the Secretary of State meet with that person?" and in the absence of that saying "she only met with them because they donated" has to meet some burden of proof. There's no one who donated to the Clinton Foundation and also met with the Secretary of State who stands out as "wow, you never see them give to charity, and in the absence of that saying "they only donated to get in good with the state department" has to meet some burden of proof. Nothing has met, or even approached meeting, such burdens of proof. In my opinion people like Melinda Gates need to start coming out and saying "How effing DARE you suggest that I donated to the Clinton Foundation just to get some favor from the state department. Retract, prove, or expect my attorney."

As to the House of Saud, never let it be said they are high on my list of favorites. I think even a cursory review of things I've said about them would show quite the opposite. But I am not a big believer in pure evil.

Do most Islamic charities bear the stigma of "supporting terror groups"? Of course. Just like most US charities are susceptible to supporting white supremacist groups (guaranteed the Red Cross has helped out some poor flooded out Louisianian who is a fairly high level Klansman just in the past few days) they would be really hard pressed to avoid that tarred brush. Heck, back when he was fighting a guerilla war against the soviets in Afghanistan everybody supported bin Laden.

In addition, not every member of the House of Saud is created equal. You'd have had a harder time being dismissive if you had gone past the first example I listed (or skipped it) and looked at the second.

On July 1, 2015, Prince Alwaleed held a press conference in which he announced his intention to donate $32 billion to philanthropic causes. He said that the funds will be used for humanitarian projects such as the empowerment of women and youth, as well as disaster relief, disease eradication and building bridges of understanding across cultures.
 
Timsupnothin said:
Thing is that there is no solid indication that ever happened. There's no one who made a donation to the Clinton Foundation and also met with the Secretary of State who stands out as "Wow, why would the Secretary of State meet with that person?"

Again, that is a simplistic black-and-white interpretation that verges on a strawman. There is far too much on the State Department's plate for the Department to deal with all of it. They have to choose what to deal with.

Timsup2nothin said:
In addition, not every member of the House of Saud is created equal. You'd have had a harder time being dismissive if you had gone past the first example I listed (or skipped it) and looked at the second.

I did look up the first one, but couldn't find any problems with it. Alwaleed does seem to be less evil than other members of the Royal Family (although apparently he employs little people as court jesters for his amusement), but we're kind of talking in general terms here. Was Alwaleed even one of the people who donated money to Clinton Foundation and got access to Clinton? I don't know.

metalhead said:
That's kind of a dubious claim, though. "Their business was prioritized" - over what?

Over any of the other business that the State Department could have taken up. It is like any other government agency, there is too much to do and there needs to be some method of triage to decide what's important enough to deal with.

metalhead said:
Sure it is.

Sure it's not. Like, do you know who Glenn Greenwald is or what he does? You can say that he is making this out to be a bigger deal than it is, but he does that about almost everything, it's The Intercept's business model.

metalhead said:
The whole line of attack from liberals on this is absurd. "Repressive regimes OMG!!" Give me a break. Their money spends the same as everyone else's.

Again, strawman (the rest of the paragraph directly above this is also a strawman, at least inasmuch as you're applying it to what I'm saying in this thread). The issue is that these "repressive regimes" are clearly not interested in the philanthropic ends of the Clinton Foundation, which raises the question of why they made the donations.

metalhead said:
It's not a strawman, that's exactly what she's being accused of, at least by Trump -

I'm not Trump. For Trump to give Clinton a hard time over any of this would be ridiculous even if everything he said was true. The ideology of the Republican Party is not only that there is nothing wrong with this but that this is the proper way to run a country, because people wealthy enough to donate millions to charity are superior to the unwashed masses and deserve to have their concerns given more consideration than others'.

metalhead said:
None of this is to say we needn't reform campaign finance, or that Citizens United isn't an absolutely idiotic decision.

I honestly don't see how you can say this, and yet think there is nothing wrong with Clinton's conduct here beyond 'optics.'
 
I have no idea what Tim thinks about Citizens United, but I hope that metalhead will at least appreciate that defending Clinton's conduct here makes it much more difficult for the mainstream Democrats to mount a credible attack on Citizens United.
This last point you made gave me pause, and I admit that I had not considered this particular angle. As a side matter, I tend to think that the Supreme Court's decision in Citizens United was basically a big "F-you electorate... You made this bed by always voting for the scumbags who spend the most money on negative ads... now lie in it. You want us to fix your problem that you created? Nope, not doing it. Money runs politics. That's the way it is, might as well put it out there in the open. If you want money out of politics stop voting for rich people and candidates who spend the most money."

But I digress. Regardless of the SCOTUS motivations, I had to think some about your point that accepting the access selling by the Clintons ruins your credibility to criticize Citizens United. However, what I then realized, is that if you take the position that aspiring and current Government members shouldn't accept donations, money etc from unsavories... well what about taxes? What about the whole "rich need to pay their fair share" argument? Should the Government not accept their money if they are scummy? :think: Should a Senator refuse to accept his paycheck because the tax dollars are coming from scummy shady people? I'm gonna have to think about this a little more.
 
I'm not necessarily only taking issue with what you said.

As far as Glenn Greenwald is concerned, I've made it clear that it's entirely possible they thought they were buying some kind of favors or access to the State Department. Likely, even. My point is simply that it's quite possible they were led on to believe that in order to coax donations from them. If we're going to posit the Clintons as political machinists, then give them some credit. They've taken money from terrible people and are spending it to do some good. They're repressive? Who cares? That makes it better, not worse. Just because the Saudis thought they were getting something in exchange for their donations doesn't mean it was true. Let them think whatever they want, I don't really care.

I spent 2 paragraphs explaining why this isn't particularly problematic despite the terrible influence of money over our politics in general. The more you get from more donors, the less possiblity there is for undue influence. You can't serve 100 different interests at once no matter how hard you try. Look at Obama - 2008, his 4th largest sector for contributions was investment firms, and yet he had no trouble having his administration write Dodd-Frank, and get it signed. Which explains why he got half as much from them in 2012, when they were his 8th biggest contributing sector.
 
To the salary question, you can simply think of it as "all federal spending comes from nowhere" (including the salaries of federal employees and elected officials). Federal taxes do not fund federal spending; they serve different purposes, namely imparting value to the dollar (if the government didn't demand dollars from the population at gunpoint, they'd be worthless) and controlling spending and thereby inflation. Taxes also used to serve to manage the distribution of income but the government's kind of given up on that aspect of it.

If that's too abstract for you, I would say there is a definite moral difference between money that is taken from unsavory folks at gunpoint, and money they give freely and presumably with the expectation that it will get them something in return.

My position on the campaign funding question would be that political candidates should not accept funding from sources they feel are morally beyond the pale. I don't have an answer for where the line is drawn and I accept that it will be different for different individuals. I do think it would have been better for Clinton to follow Bernie's lead and refuse to accept money from Wall St. felons though.

metalhead said:
You can't serve 100 different interests at once no matter how hard you try. Look at Obama - 2008, his 4th largest sector for contributions was investment firms, and yet he had no trouble having his administration write Dodd-Frank, and get it signed. Which explains why he got half as much from them in 2012, when they were his 8th biggest contributing sector.

No, but he certainly had a problem prosecuting people who were plainly guilty of literally thousands of felonies, and had a problem not appointing people from Wall St to run the economy, and had a problem writing actually effective financial regulation legislation (which Dodd Frank is not).
 
Again, that is a simplistic black-and-white interpretation that verges on a strawman. There is far too much on the State Department's plate for the Department to deal with all of it. They have to choose what to deal with.

Keep moving the goalposts, I'll keep scoring the same goal. There is no indication those choices were made based on coincident involvement with the Clinton Foundation. In my opinion people like Melinda Gates need to start coming out and saying "How effing DARE you suggest that the only reason the state department was willing to see me is because I donated to the Clinton Foundation. I'm Melinda effing Gates you tiny minded pencil neck. Retract, prove, or expect my attorney."

I did look up the first one, but couldn't find any problems with it. Alwaleed does seem to be less evil than other members of the Royal Family (although apparently he employs little people as court jesters for his amusement), but we're kind of talking in general terms here. Was Alwaleed even one of the people who donated money to Clinton Foundation and got access to Clinton? I don't know.

Beats the stuffing out of me. I'm not the one who posited that "the House of Saud" was making donations for nefarious purposes. If that had been me I'd know such details...maybe.

By the way, everyone who has ever watched Game of Thrones employs little people as court jesters for their amusement. If you have a problem with al-Waleed, take it up with them.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
There is no indication those choices were made based on coincident involvement with the Clinton Foundation.

Right, and again there won't be unless you could read Clinton's mind or she was dumb enough to put it in writing.

This is, once again, the same exact rationale used to justify buying elected officials by special interests. No direct evidence of quid pro quo shouldn't make you too stupid to put 2 and 2 together.

Timsup2nothin said:
Beats the stuffing out of me. I'm not the one who posited that "the House of Saud" was making donations for nefarious purposes. If that had been me I'd know such details...maybe.

It's impossible to get any more specific than that because the Clinton Foundation itself only lists "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" as the donor (in the $10M-$25M range).
 
But when you start "putting 2 and 2 together" without evidence where do you plan to stop?
 
Well, I admit I'm a campaign finance hardliner, so I'll stop when private contributions to political campaigns are illegal and when Clinton stops doing this kind of stuff.
 
"This kind of stuff" is a pretty nebulous limit line. So is "private contributions to campaigns are illegal" for that matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully in agreement that campaign finance reform is necessary, just suggesting that it can't be done in such a nebulous manner or plenty of people will be driving truckloads of cash through it.
 
I'm not a legal expert or a campaign finance expert. But I would prefer to only have public financing of election campaigns. And by "this kind of stuff" my thinking is that when Hillary is elected President Bill should step down from the Foundation's board and she should sever ties with the place. It's just too politically damaging to do otherwise, and we can't afford to give the Republicans any free shots at her. It also just muddies the waters too much.
 
I'm not a legal expert or a campaign finance expert. But I would prefer to only have public financing of election campaigns. And by "this kind of stuff" my thinking is that when Hillary is elected President Bill should step down from the Foundation's board and she should sever ties with the place. It's just too politically damaging to do otherwise, and we can't afford to give the Republicans any free shots at her. It also just muddies the waters too much.

I agree, and that is their announced plan. Of course the Republicans are already screaming "but what about Chelsea!?!?" Which leads to why this campaign finance reform idea, while certainly good in principle, is unquestionably a bag of snakes.
 
The Intercept ran an article about this yesterday. If you think the House of Saud was donating to the Foundation because it wanted to "do good in the world", you are dreaming.

One of the central tenants of Islam is giving to charity.

Before 9/11, al Qaeda's main source of funding was embezzling charity donations.

... "private contributions to campaigns are illegal" ...

One problem you're going to have is the Supreme Court holding that campaign contributions are "free speech." :rolleyes: This means that to get where you want to go, you'll need either a new amendment to the Constitution or a new Supreme Court ruling, reversing the previous one.
 
I agree, and that is their announced plan. Of course the Republicans are already screaming "but what about Chelsea!?!?" Which leads to why this campaign finance reform idea, while certainly good in principle, is unquestionably a bag of snakes.
Are they going to call her ugly as well?
 
Such as the one on Iraq in '03?
 
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