Clown Car III: Who's Laughing Now

[Mouthwash]

Yeah she was trying to force him to donate to charity (he said he would if she proved her ancestry) but everyone knew he would not actually do that and no one cares that he lied about it. So yeah, she shouldn't have played his game

I think you're glossing over the fact that her ancestry was in fact fraudulent?

The clown in this scenario is actually Warren sadly.

Kudos for admitting this.

 

[Lexicus]

I think you're glossing over the fact that her ancestry was in fact fraudulent?

In what sense was her ancestry "fraudulent"?

Yeah she was trying to force him to donate to charity (he said he would if she proved her ancestry) but everyone knew he would not actually do that and no one cares that he lied about it. So yeah, she shouldn't have played his game

That is certainly part of it. That Sartre quote about anti-Semites comes to mind:

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

The facts of the matter are always beside the point when dealing with accusations like the one Trump has made against Warren. Warren should have realized this of course and that speaks to political incompetence on her part.

But there are real (as opposed to merely "optical") problems with how Warren has handled this.

1) In her defense she has emphasized that her ancestry played no role in her hiring and insisted that she was qualified, which implicitly concedes the conservative lie that affirmative action results in unqualified people being hired for positions simply because of their race. This is a particularly stupid line to take given that her record as one of the most distinguished law professors of the 20th century speaks for itself.

2) She actually did allow Harvard to tout her as a diversity hire. Harvard actually used her as an example of a Native American faculty member in the 1990s to deflect claims that its faculty was not diverse enough. I surely don't need to outline the ethical and political problems this poses. At the very least she needs to apologize for this.

3) Releasing a DNA test in this fashion is little different from all the white people in history who have said "oh I can't be racist I'm 1/16th Native American". Her genes are basically unimportant to the question of whether Harvard's diversity goals were furthered by her hiring (they weren't).

4) As the Cherokee Nation has made clear Warren is undermining tribal identity and law by releasing a DNA test here.

 

[Mouthwash]

In what sense was her ancestry "fraudulent"?

Having an ancestor from the eighteenth century who may or may not have been Native American does not make you Native American in any significant sense. Warren doesn't have any more Native American ancestry than the average white person.

 

[Lexicus]

Having an ancestor from the eighteenth century who may or may not have been Native American does not make you Native American in any significant sense. Warren doesn't have any more Native American ancestry than the average white person.

True enough. But "fraudulent"?

 

[Mouthwash]

The fact that you're even questioning that point suggests you aren't being fully honest with yourself.

"I have black ancestry, <snip>! I deserve to speak for black people!"

"That's not true, you're white."

"The genetic test said I had a single African ancestor from when the Ottoman Empire was in full swing! I was telling the truth after all."

Moderator Action: It may surprise you to learn that racial slurs are not allowed at CFC. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[metatron]

Yeah she was trying to force him to donate to charity (he said he would if she proved her ancestry) but everyone knew he would not actually do that and no one cares that he lied about it. So yeah, she shouldn't have played his game

Did Trump offer to donate 976$ and change by any chance?
Because that's a rather obvious thing to do in his position.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Having an ancestor from the eighteenth century who may or may not have been Native American does not make you Native American in any significant sense. Warren doesn't have any more Native American ancestry than the average white person.

Didnt you have to be 1/16th to be regonised as a Native America ? Warren was 1/32

 

[AdrienIer]

If it's 1/64 it's more mid-19th century

 

[Lexicus]

The fact that you're even questioning that point suggests you aren't being fully honest with yourself.

I just think "fraudulent" is too strong a word to use in this context.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Considering that all she said on the matter to start this was that she had a "great grandfather or something" as told to her by her family, which turns out to be true. Trump is the one who chose to make a big deal about it. Offering a million dollars for a DNA test to prove that claim was stupid, because the only people in the US who can't prove a similar claim are people like him...families that immigrated so recently who his followers think shouldn't be counted as USians at all.

 

[Mouthwash]

Didnt you have to be 1/16th to be regonised as a Native America ? Warren was 1/32

If it's 1/64 it's more mid-19th century

Where the heck are you getting these numbers? She's 1/64 at the most, and it's possible she's only 1/1024.

Considering that all she said on the matter to start this was that she had a "great grandfather or something" as told to her by her family, which turns out to be true.

If you add in six more 'greats,' then yeah. Also, she said her mother was so Native American that her father's family was racist against her. That doesn't smell fraudulent?

 

[AdrienIer]

You'll note the "if" in my sentence. You're the one making assumptions, not me.

 

[Mouthwash]

Well, FriendlyFire was.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you add in six more 'greats,' then yeah. Also, she said her mother was so Native American that her father's family was racist against her. That doesn't smell fraudulent?

Not at all. I know plenty of racists who would write off anyone who admitted to non-white ancestry, however far back it might be. Key word, admitted. "Good" people might have something in the woodshed, but they never admit it. Ruins that "united white people" vibe.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Daily Beast is reporting Mueller is getting ready to file his report. Unclear if it will be made public. It may just go to Rosenstein and die.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Gingrich is such a perfect villain name, too. Like, it would fit perfectly in any book.

Very Dikensian. But I think the same way about Trump and Pence. (Not villain names, in their case, just Dikensian names.)

 

[Farm Boy]

Not at all. I know plenty of racists who would write off anyone who admitted to non-white ancestry, however far back it might be. Key word, admitted. "Good" people might have something in the woodshed, but they never admit it. Ruins that "united white people" vibe.

Man. You guys even have the boring type of crap racist out there. At least the frontiers-y American-American-type(rather than white-type) romanticizes the native blood they know is intermingled in there from over the centuries and usually doesn't get too bent about the DuhNah. The million illegal march drives them straight up the wall though. Those at least are winnable to decency frequently enough on an ad hoc sort of basis unlike the crap type.

 

[Sommerswerd]

As @Timsup2nothin alludes to... ol skool Murican bloodlines all pretty much have some Native American in them, how can they not?

 

[Farm Boy]

If you're really doing your genealogy homework and can trace a namesake back to the plaque for the Boston Tea Party participants then you can even claim pretty much the OG inappropriate Indian costume party.

 

[Dachs]

If you're really doing your genealogy homework and can trace a namesake back to the plaque for the Boston Tea Party participants then you can even claim pretty much the OG inappropriate Indian costume party.

*ancestor who fought in King Philip's War rolls over in his grave*