Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

[H4run]

Mind you I'm not saying that I believe those two goats (China and the WHO) to be blameless. I just don't want a narrative where all the the blame is conveniently dumped there.

That's not exactly what I'm or someone like Aelf try to do here, I think in that case we are obiviously in agreement here, but to dismiss and stop the discussion of their contribution of this mess by mentioning other factor in whataboutism fashion is also another kind of extreme that I think is not true.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Dump the blame where it belongs, at the feet of Hillary, Soros and Mr.Banghazi!

 

[innonimatu]

Speaking of China, the WHO and blame, I know it's the torygraph (downplaying lack of equipment?) but I've seen this from other credible sources:

Intensive care doctors question 'overly aggressive' use of ventilators in coronavirus crisis

At the heart of the issue was the "bizarre" and "frankly baffling" phenomenon of Covid-19 patients presenting with catastrophically low blood oxygen levels but few other ill effects.
[...]
The initial recommendations from doctors in China and Italy were to ventilate Covid patients early and aggressively, with the so-called "PEEP" pressure on the machines turned up high so their lungs did not contract when they exhaled.

"The initial message was treat as if you were treating for acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) with a high PEEP," said Dr Daniels. "But now we are becoming braver. We are tolerating much lower blood oxygen levels and using lower pressures. We are learning as we go along."

The alternative to mechanical ventilation is oxygen treatment delivered via a mask or a nasal cannula or via a non-invasive high flow device. This is the sort of treatment Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister, is said to have received in an intensive care unit at St Thomas' Hospital in London. His blood oxygen levels are not known.

The recommendations from the WHO and China should not be trusted because apparently no one yet is certain that this virus, how it causes damage, has been figured out. It's ongoing work.

The one lesson to take from China is about the need for containment where it spread, which is nothing new, but they showed it could be done. The big evil they did was pressuring the WHO to say that banning travel was unnecessary. Though there is evidence that the virus had already escaped before that became an issue, it provided cover for other government delaying on closing borders . My contention with just blaming China and the WHO is that these governments were looking for some cover, they didn't want to close borders or to do containment. It was the example that it could be done that shirted public opinion and forced governments to act.

 

[r16]

nobody is going to adress the problem of China , one and a half billion of people , the second biggest global economy . Coronavirus has failed to tackle China , if it comes back their despotism will hold it under check some way . And mere mathematics prove they can lose 4 times as many people ...

 

[H4run]

The big evil they did was pressuring the WHO to say that banning travel was unnecessary.

That's a powerful mentioned, but there are more than that, let's start with how the Wuhan Municipal Health commission told that there are no evidence of the virus capability to spread from human to human transmission while in early January 59 people in Wuhan already get infected. And Wang Linfa an expert in infectious disease from Singapore get really frustrated at that time because they doesn't let him to talk to the Chinese scientist regarding the virus, which they also pretty much successful to fooled him on believing that the virus is incapable to spread through human to human transmission hence we (Wang said) shouldn't go on panic mode (we just chill out, lower our guard), they pretty much able to deludedly calms him the freak down, I think that's a pretty dark fact. The Chinese government pretty much runs every institution that they have to make an allegation that the virus is incapable to spread through human to human transmission until near the end of January, and can you believe that, they only start to HARDLY ADMIT where things start to get out of control and the cat finally out of the bag.

They just want everything going normal disregarding the risk that other country or their own people might suffer.

 

[uppi]

This isn't going to be our last Black Swan event. There are many existential risks. It's time to carve out a portion of our budgets to building up against them.

We deliberately underfunded the only tools that would have prevented this crisis from being as strong as it is. And then we want to point fingers. Naw, there are things we can change; we have the individual sovereignty.

I don't even think this is a black swan event, because it is not like pandemics are something new. Sure, it is hard to know when the next one will be coming, but it is quite inevitable that the next one will come. So there is really no excuse for neglecting preparations for this.

 

[Grisu]

Where did this exact meme come from? The thing is a respiratory virus passed by breath droplets, why would transmission have been via consumption? Can the virus even survive in a stomach? Jumping into the digestive system then back into the lungs?.

I think it goes well with the widespread stereotype of the chinese eating everything. I guess that's why it keeps spreading.

As for the thread itself, I find it rather ludicrous to try to hold anybody accountable for a virus. China undoubtedly made mistakes, but so did every single government that since had to deal with it (and I don't even speak of the mistakes of the populations themselves). When China finally warned the world, many here wouldn't want to hear any of it. 'it's just another flu'. What makes people think it would have been different if said warning would have come a month or so earlier?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Adequate hunting helps. Inadequate hunting leads to outbreaks.

So what we need is this guy?

 

[H4run]

When China finally warned the world, many here wouldn't want to hear any of it. 'it's just another flu'.

When is that exactly, when China finally warns the world to beware and be-careful like Noah warning his people about the float, and all the rest of the nation goes like "yaaa whatever" remind me Grisu when is that happened?

 

[Estebonrober]

For the most part I’ve curtailed purchasing anything made in Communist China.

Does it make a difference to them? Probably not, but it makes a difference to me.

I agree with the idea behind the idea, but describing China as anything other then fascist is silly. China is communist the way north korea is a democratic republic.

 

[Grisu]

When is that exactly, when China finally warns the world to beware and be-careful like Noah warning his people about the float, and all the rest of the nation goes like "yaaa whatever" remind me Grisu when is that happened?

take a look about the leaders of the UK or the US reacted to corona until very recently. Or here in Switzerland most of the public really did teh whole 'meh, it's just a flu' well into february, even when stuff startet do go bad just next door in italy. People didn't believe it until outbreaks were everywhere.

 

[Birdjaguar]

They just want everything going normal disregarding the risk that other country or their own people might suffer.

This is exactly what Trump did. If one wants to blame China for encouraging the spread outside its borders, one also has to blame Trump for doing the same within the US.

 

[H4run]

take a look about the leaders of the UK or the US reacted to corona until very recently. Or here in Switzerland most of the public really did teh whole 'meh, it's just a flu' well into february, even when stuff startet do go bad just next door in italy. People didn't believe it until outbreaks were everywhere.

Right that might be true, I see that kind of irresponsibility also here, but that's don't tell anything about the China warning regarding the dangerous of the virus, and how the global community should take the virus seriously. They want us to chill it's actually in-line with what they are hoping. They even manipulated the number of infected and causalities in some cases to be 40X lesser than it should be.

This is exactly what Trump did. If one wants to blame China for encouraging the spread outside its borders, one also has to blame Trump for doing the same within the US.

I agree, can we say they are both at fault? Trump at fault to US and its citizen, while China at fault to their people and the global world through their lies and spread of falsehood?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Right that might be true, I see that kind of irresponsibility also here, but that's don't tell anything about the China warning regarding the dangerous of the virus, and how the global community should take the virus seriously. They want us to chill it's actually in-line with what they are hoping. They even manipulated the number of infected and causalities in some cases to be 40X lesser than it should be.



I agree, can we say they are both at fault? Trump at fault to US and its citizen, while China at fault to their people and the global world through their lies and spread of falsehood?

Sure and Trump will cause more cases and more deaths than anyone else.

 

[H4run]

Sure and Trump will cause more cases and more deaths than anyone else.

I know you are not favoring Trump BJ, I'm also at your side here, but that doesn't meant also every narration that coming out from him is false, regarding the fault of WHO and Chinese government in this virus out-break even though he used that issue as a smoke-bomb to save his ash, but there is truth to that statement. Aren't you agree?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I know you are not favoring Trump BJ, I'm also at your side here, but that doesn't meant also every narration that coming out from him is false, regarding the fault of WHO and Chinese government in this virus out-break even though he used that issue as a smoke-bomb to save his ash, but there is truth to that statement. Aren't you agree?

Trump has one concern: Himself. Does he tell the truth sometimes? Doesn't matter. He is just a terrible person.

 

[Farm Boy]

So what we need is this guy?

If those were the toys, I might get a deer permit myself.

 

[tuckerkao]

Trump has one concern: Himself. Does he tell the truth sometimes? Doesn't matter. He is just a terrible person.

Math will always tell the truth regardless how strong Trump's debating skills and personal prides are, that the time pass by and the reality will show up.

When the dead bodies line up in the cemeteries, it reveals the facts which Trump doesn't want others to realize.

Trump values his re-election chance more important than any Americans' lives beside his own groups. On Nov 3, 2020, most Americans will grade Trump, don't miss your chance.

 

[AdamCrock]

This is exactly what Trump did. If one wants to blame China for encouraging the spread outside its borders, one also has to blame Trump for doing the same within the US.

After watching yesterday's "Trump's taks force Live" I have come to 1 conclusion, which is : Trump is only concerned about economy , he does't give a **** about the death toll.

edit: He's failing to see that without people, there is no economy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If those were the toys, I might get a deer permit myself.

You don't need those toys for adequate hunting to prevent outbreaks among deer. Those toys are for preventing outbreaks among republican governators.