Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

After watching yesterday's "Trump's taks force Live" I have come to 1 conclusion, which is : Trump is only concerned about economy , he does't give a **** about the death toll.

edit: He's failing to see that without people, there is no economy.
Trump has a very short sight and wants to seek the short-term advantages. If Dow Jones flourishes this month, Trump will be happy.

I'll not be surprised when the United States come up with several millions of cases after another month or 2 from now.
 
You don't need those toys for adequate hunting to prevent outbreaks among deer. Those toys are for preventing outbreaks among republican governators.

Is Arnold a Republican ??? ( IDK ) but if so we have ourselves Terminator vs. Predator movie Ladies and Gentleman ! xD
 
Trump has very short sight and wants to seek the short-term advantages.

I'll not be surprised when the United States come up with several millions of cases after another month or 2 from now.

Let's hope not. I sincerely hope thet despise his oblivious nature there are people in the government that can set him straight , otherwise we will be facing a serious political and economical crisis.
 
I wouldn't be to upset if retaliation and boycotts send China's economy back to the 1970s.
Not to bump back to the first page, but I think this opens up an entirely different question as to whether or not China has developed enough as to whether or not this is even possible. I think they definitely have more to lose than fully developed nations, but I think they've reached somewhat of a self-sustaining point where their development can't be stopped.
 
Let's hope not. I sincerely hope thet despise his oblivious nature there are people in the government that can set him straight , otherwise we will be facing a serious political and economical crisis.
It's about the high chance. The United States stand at 502,876, it'll take only 2 to 3 more exponential to reach the multi-millions' marks, not to mention there are still tons of unknown cases due to the delays of those lab testing.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Even if the "Stay at Home" are ordered, people can still expect the case number doubles every week to 8 days because some of them don't obey the government.
 
I wouldn't be to upset if retaliation and boycotts send China's economy back to the 1970s.

Zardi this is madness !! How many things in Your home is labeled "Made in China". China is the MOST important producer in the world ! If China falls, we all fall, and that is the truth ! How many thing You have in home labeled "Made in New Zealand" ??
 
Zardi this is madness !! How many things in Your home is labeled "Made in China". China is the MOST important producer in the world ! If China falls, we all fall, and that is the truth ! How many thing You have in home labeled "Made in New Zealand" ??

Not a lot. Made in China can be replaced with Made in Vietnam, Taiwan, India.

We're looking at state sponsored economy anyway. We used to make stuff that can be rebuilt with a few billion dollars.

China buys a lot of our stuff with looking good shortages we can sell elsewhere. Even in a depression people still gotta eat.

We already buy most cars from Japan.

I'm talking 10-20 years. Production already moving out of China.

We're already looking at a return to the 70s and 80s. Not much international tourism, less variety. Government intervention similar to the war years.

Weaning the world off China is probably going to happen to some extent.
 
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Is Arnold a Republican ??? ( IDK ) but if so we have ourselves Terminator vs. Predator movie Ladies and Gentleman ! xD
Arnie already whooped the Predator and didn't even have to Terminator up to do it.
 
Not a lot. Made in China can be replaced with Made in Vietnam, Taiwan, India.

We're looking at state sponsored economy anyway. We used to make stuff that can be rebuilt with a few billion dollars.

China buys a lot of our stuff with looking good shortages we can sell elsewhere. Even in a depression people still gotta eat.

We already buy most cars from Japan.

I'm talking 10-20 years. Production already moving out of China.

We're already looking at a return to the 70s and 80s. Not much international tourism, less variety. Government intervention similar to the war years.

You might be right , be we cannot be so rigid about China yet. We cannot afford it. In current state the best bet is how it is : China stops the virus - it is what we're vying for and it is what we're getting. China all communist on the inside, yet still oblige it's capitalistic side on the outside ! Selling cheap workforce left and right ! Making products and workforce so cheap it is a sin not to buy them.
I think it was Churchill who said that Russia is a mystery , but he was wrong. The true mystery is China !
By far surpassed anything I knew about communism and capitalism and balancing in between. For what I know China is dealing all the cards now, and truth be told we have not been dealt a favorable hand .....
 
Arnie already whooped the Predator and didn't even have to Terminator up to do it.

Pah !

The Predator job is at the LEAST the Terminator level. :) I believe she is - setting everything on fire just by playing it .... pretty much terminator level to me =)

Oh You said "Arnie" ?? I've read "Aimee"

still ... she got the burning everything up to a terminator level, that's for sure :)
 
I think it's time for them to be hold accountable for their lies, I believe this is the right time to call them out.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
 
When is that exactly, when China finally warns the world to beware and be-careful like Noah warning his people about the float, and all the rest of the nation goes like "yaaa whatever" remind me Grisu when is that happened?

This was a good question, so I went looking for an answer. The 'cluster of infections' was detected in mid December. By end of December, the market was shut down.
January 12, the virus was already genetically sequenced.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...people-in-china-under-lunar-new-year-lockdown
January 25: Xi Jinping, had called an emergency government meeting, telling officials the country is facing a “grave situation” and that the coronavirus is “accelerating its spread”. 50 million people on lockdown. So the concern was being trumpeted for all to see.

This thing moved fast. Where do you see the opportunity for their expressed concerns to have been made faster?
(I'm not trolling or anything, what were you expectations?)

Though, I don't see much downplaying of the threat after that January 25 announcement, basically anywhere. Trump worrying about the stock market on Feb 26 indicates he thought we were over-reacting a bit, though.
 
I agree with the idea behind the idea, but describing China as anything other then fascist is silly. China is communist the way north korea is a democratic republic.
They are still ideological communists and have not abandoned Marxism-Leninism and Maoism. They just make slight changes in tactics from time to time.
 
This was a good question,

And a fair answer from you too I appreciate that, but still there are things in your answer that seems not entirely truth in the case of "warning the world regarding the calamity" and "how fast is their reaction", I'll elaborate what I mean.

January 25: Xi Jinping, had called an emergency government meeting, telling officials the country is facing a “grave situation” and that the coronavirus is “accelerating its spread”. 50 million people on lockdown. So the concern was being trumpeted for all to see.

Please check the time-line here that was provided by @Kaitzilla , You'll understand that their reaction is far from what to be considered fast,

For those who doesn't want to click the link, I provided the time-line in the spoiler:

Spoiler Time-line :
Some point in late 2019: The coronavirus jumps from some animal species to a human being. The best guess at this point is that it happened at a Chinese “wet market.”

the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.

December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Sometime in “Late December”: Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.

The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.

Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”

January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.

after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”

According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”

Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 6: The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:

Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. “We should not go into panic mode,” he said.

Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

Also that day, the CDC “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”

Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”

January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li’s condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.

The New York Times quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission’s declaration that “there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans.” Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.

All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.” They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that “most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.”

Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.

January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China. “Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold.”

January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.

This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

January 15: Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found, and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.

January 17: The CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customs and Border Protection announce that travelers from Wuhan to the United States will undergo entry screening for symptoms associated with 2019-nCoV at three U.S. airports that receive most of the travelers from Wuhan, China: San Francisco, New York (JFK), and Los Angeles airports.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission’s daily update declares, “A total of 763 close contacts have been tracked, 665 medical observations have been lifted, and 98 people are still receiving medical observations. Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 18: HHS Secretary Azar has his first discussion about the virus with President Trump. Unnamed “senior administration officials” told the Washington Post that “the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.

Despite the fact that Wuhan doctors know the virus is contagious, city authorities allow 40,000 families to gather and share home-cooked food in a Lunar New Year banquet.

January 19: The Chinese National Health Commission declares the virus “still preventable and controllable.” The World Health Organization updates its statement, declaring, “Not enough is known to draw definitive conclusions about how it is transmitted, the clinical features of the disease, the extent to which it has spread, or its source, which remains unknown.”

January 20: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares for the last time in its daily bulletin, “no related cases were found among the close contacts.

That day, the head of China’s national health commission team investigating the outbreak, confirmed that two cases of infection in China’s Guangdong province had been caused by human-to-human transmission and medical staff had been infected.

Also on this date, the Wuhan Evening News newspaper, the largest newspaper in the city, mentions the virus on the front page for the first time since January 5.

CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

January 22: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”

President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

January 24: Vietnam reports person-to-person transmission, and Japan, South Korea, and the U.S report their second cases. The second case is in Chicago. Within two days, new cases are reported in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Arizona. The virus is in now in several locations in the United States, and the odds of preventing an outbreak are dwindling to zero.

On February 1, Dr. Li Wenliang tested positive for coronavirus. He died from it six days later.


You'll understand from the time-line, contrary from your believe it's actually a late respond from their initial denial and stubbornness. And what they did in 25 January is not a trumpet of warning for the international community it's their (finally) sane reaction for their national survival.. They pretty much closing their eyes for all the worker that they gives permission to travel all over the world including here in Indonesia.

This thing moved fast. Where do you see the opportunity for their expressed concerns to have been made faster?

Again I already answer this at your previous comment.

Trump worrying about the stock market on Feb 26 indicates he thought we were over-reacting a bit, though.

Yes that's irresponsible and greedy. That's disgusting. But that doesn't negate all the manipulation and data faking that Chinese did that result the Pandemic in this level, what they did pretty much bring everyone down with them intentionally or not.
 
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It wasn't fear of China, it was fear of "economic damage" due to cutting off travel.

Those are linked in some countries. The government here was quite explicit that they were trying to avoid retaliatory measures by China, knowing how China typically behaves. And initially, the travel ban on Chinese visitors did receive China's rebuke.

As for the thread itself, I find it rather ludicrous to try to hold anybody accountable for a virus. China undoubtedly made mistakes, but so did every single government that since had to deal with it (and I don't even speak of the mistakes of the populations themselves). When China finally warned the world, many here wouldn't want to hear any of it. 'it's just another flu'. What makes people think it would have been different if said warning would have come a month or so earlier?

This thing moved fast. Where do you see the opportunity for their expressed concerns to have been made faster?
(I'm not trolling or anything, what were you expectations?)

Though, I don't see much downplaying of the threat after that January 25 announcement, basically anywhere. Trump worrying about the stock market on Feb 26 indicates he thought we were over-reacting a bit, though.

It's not simply about warning the world. It's about closing off borders and preventing transmission.

China failed to close Wuhan's borders properly to begin with, which was what caused mass infections elsewhere as Wuhan residents fled ahead of the lockdown. And around January 25 was a very critical time because it was the Lunar New Year period, which sees a lot of movement of Chinese visitors inside and outside of China. This was the time when governments in the region were still hesitating about imposing a travel ban on China. At some point soon after, China itself banned foreign travel, but too late. Loads of Chinese visitors had travelled around the world. This was also probably when mass infections in Europe started.

Not to mention the Chinese government gave the green light for a mass New Year dinner event involving thousands around that time, which worsened the situation. IIRC, this decision was even criticised in the Chinese press later!

China's responsibility is significant in causing the current situation. Had China acted responsibly, we would probably not have seen the massive spread of the pandemic we see today.
 
I do not blame China.

A largely financial capitalism led strategy of ubiquitously easing international travel contributed.

And the outcome of 9/11 was a misplaced obsessian with anti-terrorism security checks at airports,
and the corresponding near complete neglect to develope medical checking facilities thereabouts.

There are other mistakes, fitting large aircraft with life jackets rather than air filters etc.
 
Those are linked in some countries. The government here was quite explicit that they were trying to avoid retaliatory measures by China, knowing how China typically behaves. And initially, the travel ban on Chinese visitors did receive China's rebuke.

We called it here "Chinese Lobby". They just stuffed it to our mouth and our politician and major key element are "in debt" or "afraid" of them.
 
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It's not simply about warning the world. It's about closing off borders and preventing transmission.

China failed to close Wuhan's borders properly to begin with, which was what caused mass infections elsewhere as Wuhan residents fled ahead of the lockdown. And around January 25 was a very critical time because it was the Lunar New Year period, which sees a lot of movement of Chinese visitors inside and outside of China. This was the time when governments in the region were still hesitating about imposing a travel ban on China. At some point soon after, China itself banned foreign travel, but too late. Loads of Chinese visitors had travelled around the world. This was also probably when mass infections in Europe started.

You are judging them with the power of hindsight, which, IMHO, is inherently unfair. Nearly every country repeated exactly the same mistakes (after China had already done them). In Italy many fled Lombardy the night before the lockdown, the train station overflowing with people wanting to get away (and probably spreading the virus far and wide). Switzerland kept operating trains to Milano even after Italy had locked down. Southern Germany insisted in having carnival even after Switzerland (and most importantly Basel had banned it) drawing crowds when Switzerland had already banned gatherings of over 1000. Same goes for Mardi Gras. Liverpool played a champions league game in front of tens of thousands of spectators, when over in Paris the stadium remained empty). That all happend well after we all knew what happened in China, coverup or not. If you want to hold China accountable, you'd have to hold many other countries accountable too.

What we're seeing is IMO just the basic human urge to find somebody to blame, to point a finger, because it's hard to hate something you can't even see, something that just happens to kill people without an actual conscious intent to do so.
 
Those are linked in some countries. The government here was quite explicit that they were trying to avoid retaliatory measures by China, knowing how China typically behaves. And initially, the travel ban on Chinese visitors did receive China's rebuke.

Here the political and economic vassalage is around Brussels and the eranco-german EU axis, but I think I get what you mean. I find myself only too often in anger at my country's government throwing away sovereign capabilities and acting incompetently due to such vassalage to foreign powers.

What we're seeing is IMO just the basic human urge to find somebody to blame, to point a finger, because it's hard to hate something you can't even see, something that just happens to kill people without an actual conscious intent to do so.

I think that, to @aelf in Singapore at least, the idea was that the government there was inclined to take the danger more seriously (as, say, Taiwan did) but didn't do so for fear to chinese retaliation. They were more conscious of the dangers of these epidemics there, due to past recent experiences.
Even here I saw my country's government trying to keep borders open, and schools and universities operating as people themselves closed them down and demanded the borders be closed. Because "european coordination" and "WHO recommendations"...
Switzerland of course at least couldn't have its government use the "european coordination" excuse.
 
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