I wonder why all the anti vaxxers and anti maskers aren't complaining about the ban on indoor smoking.
Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel.
- Thread starter Takhisis
- Start date
- Status
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 28,269
One of those bans fudged me up on a quit attempt. Took me 4 more years.
I had been doing pretty well, since if you allow indoor smoking, you can pick and choose where you go to. Great system, unless you get your jazz from making people behave like you(and then it's not nearly orgasmic enough), but then they shoved all the smokers out on the street, where I have to walk.
I'm neither of the "antis" you mention, but the bans on indoor smoking are **** for ****-quality people.
I had been doing pretty well, since if you allow indoor smoking, you can pick and choose where you go to. Great system, unless you get your jazz from making people behave like you(and then it's not nearly orgasmic enough), but then they shoved all the smokers out on the street, where I have to walk.
I'm neither of the "antis" you mention, but the bans on indoor smoking are **** for ****-quality people.
I remember it differently, even though we mishandled the ban something fierce. We made it 'by choice' for awhile, hoping that the market would discriminate to give us options. A few years later the ban kicked in, and I could finally smell of just sweat when I got home from clubbing.
It was, because the only thing that finally got the smoke out of our shared environment was a ban on the smoking. I always wished the other way had worked. I'd felt bad when all the other bungling ended up just causing more problems than it solved. I started pushing back when we wanted to chase smokers away from the entrances of buildings.
Whether I had to deal with second-hand smoke was zero-sum with people who wanted to smoke. I wish it wasn't true, but it was.
As an aside, vaping has solved this on my end. I've never felt the need to enforce bylaws on someone vaping in the bus-shelter during a rainstorm. Turns out that most of my concern was with the toxic stench.
Whether I had to deal with second-hand smoke was zero-sum with people who wanted to smoke. I wish it wasn't true, but it was.
As an aside, vaping has solved this on my end. I've never felt the need to enforce bylaws on someone vaping in the bus-shelter during a rainstorm. Turns out that most of my concern was with the toxic stench.
It was zero-sum, and I definitely remember hoping that the 'voluntary' compromise had worked. There's only one winner, but there's always a winner. You putting profane motivations on me is unwarranted, undeserved, and incorrect.
AmtrakQuebec
King
So, DeSantis got a court to allow him to continue his vaccine bans in Florida. Meanwhile his state leads the nation in daily deaths. I wonder if anyone will start a class action suit against him for murdering thousands of Floridians needlessly.
You don't believe me, because you're kinda nasty sometimes. My suspicion is that it's lashing out, but it's still tiresome. Sex is not profane, it's holy. It's your degrading image of spewing onto those less powerful that's profane. I can assure you, I've had smoke blown on me (intentionally) more than I've enforced smoking bylaws. I truly am sorry that becoming addicted to cigarettes didn't work out for you, but I never did a single thing that caused any problems you had there.
Here's me back then, and I'm consistent in that thread. It's a younger me, so forgive that. But that was right after the bans had kicked in, and I'd seen that all the previous efforts to create viable smoke-free options had just not worked out. I knew bar owners that were struggling. I'd watched HVAC investments become obsoleted, because they'd been insufficient meet the anti-smoking sentiment. I was frustrated that the non-smoking venues weren't viable. It was zero-sum, even then, but it bothered me that it was.
Before then, I couldn't go clubbing in a non-toxic environment, I couldn't go to a non-toxic bar, I couldn't take my kids to many nice restaurants. Hell, I've even been in situations where the air was clean, and the stranger wouldn't honor my request to not light up.
And here's me noticing that forcing smokers from doorways was just going too far. I never supported this extra push. I never enforced this extra push.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 28,269
I am. You are correct, and I am not insulted.
I still respect you, mostly, as a man, even if I must give you my active disrespect in this regard. I think you're being a bad person, literally, by being ok with this. Liberal capitalist, and all. But you're ok in other regards, better than many or most. I am happy to take your word on the things you know, and I have modified my vaccine stance several times(since it's this thread) based on what you have taken the time to share. So, because it isn't said enough: Thank you.
I still respect you, mostly, as a man, even if I must give you my active disrespect in this regard. I think you're being a bad person, literally, by being ok with this. Liberal capitalist, and all. But you're ok in other regards, better than many or most. I am happy to take your word on the things you know, and I have modified my vaccine stance several times(since it's this thread) based on what you have taken the time to share. So, because it isn't said enough: Thank you.
If I had my way, smokers would have the option of clubbing in clean or smoky bars. And so would the non-smokers. In practice, it wasn't that way. The de facto opposite position from mine was: people who didn't want smoke didn't get to go to bars. That was the sum result. Former smoker? Sorry, no clubbing for you. Asthmatic? Sorry, no clubbing for you. Laundry is inconvenient? Sorry, no clubbing for you.
In practice, we now have smoke free clubs and we have patios outside the clubs full of people smoking. It's how it played out.
But yeah, I am definitely a liberal capitalist. I even tried to pay someone to not light up next to me (I'd just learned about Coase, and my kids were seated next to a smoking table). I supported suing Big Tobacco for targeting kids and reformulizing-for-addiction. And then I will always support subsidized healthcare for those affected by smoking.
In practice, we now have smoke free clubs and we have patios outside the clubs full of people smoking. It's how it played out.
But yeah, I am definitely a liberal capitalist. I even tried to pay someone to not light up next to me (I'd just learned about Coase, and my kids were seated next to a smoking table). I supported suing Big Tobacco for targeting kids and reformulizing-for-addiction. And then I will always support subsidized healthcare for those affected by smoking.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 28,269
It is interesting who sets upon who, how much, for what, and why.
Thank you for the response. I think we have concluded this tangent. But share more, if you wish to. I will read it.
Edit: I mean, I'm searching for the moral disconnect. Because there is one there. I think it is in you finding clubbing as a social activity, or having smoke blown at you(oh noes, the insult and smells!) at all comparable to siccing Johnny Law into the situation. Yes, you're a liberal capitalist, and that's what I am actively disrespecting in this regard. Just for clarity: I am pretty tired of the tangent, too. As you said.
Thank you for the response. I think we have concluded this tangent. But share more, if you wish to. I will read it.
Edit: I mean, I'm searching for the moral disconnect. Because there is one there. I think it is in you finding clubbing as a social activity, or having smoke blown at you(oh noes, the insult and smells!) at all comparable to siccing Johnny Law into the situation. Yes, you're a liberal capitalist, and that's what I am actively disrespecting in this regard. Just for clarity: I am pretty tired of the tangent, too. As you said.
Last edited:
I guess the parallels to covid-19 are kinda there (even if at totally different scales). Johnny Law is involved in the situation as soon as it become illegal for me to stop someone for breathing on me, where their right to ruin a space is greater than my right to a clean one. With smoking, you can easily tell if it's been contaminated. With covid-19, it's basically impossible.
We're also crossing the line here with Covid-19, because we've shifted the onus from 'prove I'm dangerous' to 'I have to prove that I'm (arbitrarily) safe'. If Covid-19 were more dangerous, the calculations would be different, but here where I am there's ample social permission to enforce 'passports'. And I can sense the need to 'punish and control' in these calls, they're not just being forwarded in the name of caution. I think there is strong evidence that having fought of covid-19 gives really good resistance, but the idea of including 'previous infections' in the passport are derided, showing a weird lack of empathy or scientific consideration.
I can definitely understand why those with immunity would want permission to demask, even if we live in a world where the non-immune need to mask. But the lack of empathy towards vaccine hesitiancy, endlessly spinning it as anti-social, erodes the conversation. (it doesn't help that the Venn Diagrams overlapped, I'll admit) But now we're entering the world where we used to allow all masked people to enter a location to a world where we won't allow the unvaccinated to enter. I'd happily wear a mask if it meant I didn't have to show my passport.
We're also crossing the line here with Covid-19, because we've shifted the onus from 'prove I'm dangerous' to 'I have to prove that I'm (arbitrarily) safe'. If Covid-19 were more dangerous, the calculations would be different, but here where I am there's ample social permission to enforce 'passports'. And I can sense the need to 'punish and control' in these calls, they're not just being forwarded in the name of caution. I think there is strong evidence that having fought of covid-19 gives really good resistance, but the idea of including 'previous infections' in the passport are derided, showing a weird lack of empathy or scientific consideration.
I can definitely understand why those with immunity would want permission to demask, even if we live in a world where the non-immune need to mask. But the lack of empathy towards vaccine hesitiancy, endlessly spinning it as anti-social, erodes the conversation. (it doesn't help that the Venn Diagrams overlapped, I'll admit) But now we're entering the world where we used to allow all masked people to enter a location to a world where we won't allow the unvaccinated to enter. I'd happily wear a mask if it meant I didn't have to show my passport.
AmtrakQuebec
King
Glad to see we're off the annoying smoking tangent.
Lexicus
Deity
Man, eff a class-action lawsuit, Biden should invade Florida to bring De Santis to justice
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Messages
- 28,269
Smokers should be socially punished. They ruin their own bodies and kill people with second-hand smoke. Just in Australia, per year, second-hand smoke kills thousands. Globally over the past few decades, it's millions.
People in the future are going to think we were insane, with how much we poison ourselves needlessly. Air pollution from myriad sources leads to premature death, loss of intelligence, stunted growth, and so many other health factors. When you factor in health outcomes to cost-benefit, you can justify basically any spending or regulation that reduces air pollution, because of how damaging it is. But it's not just air. Living near noisy highways has proven impacts on increasing dementia. Light pollution has a ton of biochemistry impacts on our bodies and brains. Plastic is terrible for us, and it's now everywhere. Lead and other toxic heavy Metals are still rife in large parts of the world, and even the West has far too much, the safe level being none, because even trace amounts have negative impacts. You can literally track crime waves, by when they phased lead in, and out. And I seriously wonder with cops, if all the trace lead is spurring some of the Aggression issues,
These aren't even choosing as an adult to accept consequences. If you as a adult, want to do drugs, and not hurt other people, that's fine. But you can't escape these factors by just not participating, and most people don't even know they are getting poisoned by car culture, or urban sprawl, or some company polluting bits of heavy metals.
People in the future are going to think we were insane, with how much we poison ourselves needlessly. Air pollution from myriad sources leads to premature death, loss of intelligence, stunted growth, and so many other health factors. When you factor in health outcomes to cost-benefit, you can justify basically any spending or regulation that reduces air pollution, because of how damaging it is. But it's not just air. Living near noisy highways has proven impacts on increasing dementia. Light pollution has a ton of biochemistry impacts on our bodies and brains. Plastic is terrible for us, and it's now everywhere. Lead and other toxic heavy Metals are still rife in large parts of the world, and even the West has far too much, the safe level being none, because even trace amounts have negative impacts. You can literally track crime waves, by when they phased lead in, and out. And I seriously wonder with cops, if all the trace lead is spurring some of the Aggression issues,
These aren't even choosing as an adult to accept consequences. If you as a adult, want to do drugs, and not hurt other people, that's fine. But you can't escape these factors by just not participating, and most people don't even know they are getting poisoned by car culture, or urban sprawl, or some company polluting bits of heavy metals.
Last edited:
- Status
