Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Was that the question asked in the debate?
Would you take a vaccine that the doctors and CDC say not to take but:
  1. Kamala Harris
  2. Mike Pence
  3. Joe Biden
says to take? The answers to all three are (seemingly) obvious, and the same as your question, and changing the variable doesn’t change my answer.

Q: If the Trump administration approves a vaccine before or after the election, should Americans take it and would you take it.
A: If the public health professionals, Dr Fauci, If the Doctors tell us we should take it. I will be the first in line to take it Absolutely
But if Donald Trump tells us, we should take it Iam not taking it.

So you would take medical advice from Donald Trump to take random vaccine, random medicine ?
Or are you confused that Harris choose to answer the question she wanted to in a debate and not the actual question asked ?
You also think its makes no differance to edit out the answer as well. ? How about I edit out the last part of her answer would that be ok with you ?
 
People can be right and wrong at the same time, their motivations can be right and wrong, and their explanations can be both correct and misleading.

Ms. Harris in this case gave a political answer to the vaccine question, one that I think is detrimental to the public good. I can criticize that answer without implying answers to other, unrelated questions.
 
I really do think the pro-choice people have given up a lot of high-ground for very little on this one. The threshold for violating bodily integrity and medical privacy turned out to be very low. The vaccine isn't being redesigned for Delta, it's just being pressured over and over. There's no ongoing science to answer the best concerns, systemically. The vaccine won't provide herd immunity, it just slows spread. Half my feed is pressuring the vaccine to be approved for kids instead of hoping it meets minimum standards. All of this to prevent a self-inflicted injury. There will be other victims, obviously, but it's a dilemma and the ratio is overwhelming. We're also the society that chooses to not go the extra mile to alleviate the tension by improving the quality of the product we're pressuring people to take, so the blame is spread more than people realize. When the vaccine is available to kids, it won't have crossed reasonable thresholds of evidence, so now we have more social tension when we should have less.

Mandatory Vaccination is settled law and has been for over a century. This pro-choice argument is bizarrely stupid. Pro-choice arguments are for carrying a child to term, a 9-month process at the minimum (or two decades or more of a commitment), that presents a far greater danger to health than a vaccine.

And the anti-choice people don't care about logic traps. They will spout 'pro choice' arguments and then rail against abortion in the same breath.

The Vaccine is still effective against Delta. It lost a few percentage points but is still very high. Look at any map comparing vaccination rates to case numbers. It is absolutely working, and once the anti-vaxxers get pressured and the kids get vaccinated, the numbers will drop further.

I honestly can't believe that you really work in the biomedical field, when you post like this.
 
I don’t think there’s any way to fully resolve the bodily autonomy-society-expediency equation. At some point, a majority, or a very active minority, will have to draw a line on where these points all intersect.

I guess I value society and expediency more than autonomy on this question given the tools available to us now. It’s kind of like the speed limits question—we could end highway injury today if we lowered them all to 5 miles per hour and put 25-foot long Nerf bumpers on all the cars. But the costs of that policy would be so great that I don’t think anyone else would want it.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in Nerf, or nothin’.
 
I don’t think there’s any way to fully resolve the bodily autonomy-society-expediency equation. At some point, a majority, or a very active minority, will have to draw a line on where these points all intersect.
Yeah, it's always a matrix. I think we've fired a lot of ammunition here, for not much benefit, given Delta's infectiousness. I don't think we're ready for the conversation that happens if the number of infectious vaccinated outnumber the infectious unvaccinated. We're not handling the conversation about natural immunity very well. We're not providing reasonable answers to the hesitant. Hell, we have people who're pressuring for the vaccines to be approved for kids rather than knowing that we're actually hoping it will.

I'll be more frustrated than many will be about this, because I was honestly expecting certain tools to be available to help sway the hesitant.
 
People can be right and wrong at the same time, their motivations can be right and wrong, and their explanations can be both correct and misleading.
Ms. Harris in this case gave a political answer to the vaccine question, one that I think is detrimental to the public good. I can criticize that answer without implying answers to other, unrelated questions.

At least we understand that her answer was edited.
The rest of the complaints are fair enough criticism as she added the second half just to score political points in a debate and answer a question that was not asked of her.
You beef should be directed at the people editing her answer in an even more misleading and political way. And the people that set the country on fire by spreading misinformation
 
We're not providing reasonable answers to the hesitant.
What constitutes a reasonable answer and what if that reasonable answer finds no receptive audience? I think some of the outrage on our side comes as a result of pushback against those, willfully or not, giving out information that is not backed by established scientific standards.

I don’t doubt there is an ethics part of this matrix, and I really struggle to find an answer that provides for the best outcome while avoiding violating those principles.

I’m not trying to make a point with comparing this, but just explain my own position: is it wrong to talk about Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy? We engage ourselves in this deception which we find to be harmless. I don’t think I turned out any worse for having believed in any of them, but does that make it alright? We do our own calculations on what’s right or wrong, and would it really be that wrong if we used a little slight-of-hand to get people to work towards what we think is the best possible outcome?

You beef should be directed at the people editing her answer in an even more misleading and political way.
I’ve already mocked him in a comic, an amadeus original (trademark rights pending). Didn’t do that for Ms. Harris!

I don’t mean this pointedly, but if you want me to criticize someone for spreading harmful information, I’ll do it. It’s just that the lack of criticism for some should not imply that I otherwise wouldn’t; I curate my thoughts for when I think I have something useful or interesting to say. If they want me to start being a judge, they better start paying me a judge salary rather than my piddly peon worker-slave wage. :mischief:
 
I don't think we're ready for the conversation that happens if the number of infectious vaccinated outnumber the infectious unvaccinated.

It's not happening, and it doesn't matter, because the hospital loads would be far more manageable. Vaccinated people are far less likely to catch it, and even if they do, are less likely to spread it, and are infectious for a far shorter time span. Look at infection maps or data on spread.

We're not handling the conversation about natural immunity very well.

Natural immunity as an argument is stupid because it requires getting COVID, which means possible death. It should not be presented as an argument for anti-vaccine loons to twist, because it is getting people killed. And it shouldn't be a vaccine exemption excuse, because that just provides an avenue for anti-vaxxers to cheat the system or get themselves purposefully killed, and removes consistency. The cost of vaccinating people who have already had COVID is very low.

You don't encourage people to get bitten by snakes to build their immunity to venom. Or to play Russian roulette.

Excerpt
E_b0JRDX0Awel_q


We're not providing reasonable answers to the hesitant.

Vaccines have been available for months. There is plenty of information available. Positive incentives have been in place in the States for a while. All this has been done. It still isn't working, because of propaganda networks and stubborn denial of reality. That means public health must be upheld with negative incentives. Public health has never been about individual choice, it's about society health or harm.


Anyway, this entire anti-public health reaction re COVID is ridiculous, because people did not act like this in regards to other public health matters. A thread about Tuberculosis treatment.

You guys keep writing these ten tweet threads and I keep telling you to just look up how Tuberculosis has been treated in this country. You can disagree with the practice, but stop pretending it's new. And also stop pretending it hasn't been effective at keeping you safe.

Me: "I was under threat of going to jail if I didn't take toxic meds for 7 months under the constant surveillance of the government. Sometimes they made me go into a chamber & choke until I gave a good bio sample"

You: "A mandate for a vaccine? What does this mean for society?"

And I'm not complaining. I'm glad they made me take meds I hated for 7 months and watched me every day and made me choke into a jar. That's why we don't have to worry about drug-resistant TB. Which is good. I get mad when people act like any of this is new.

Also, where have y'all been when it comes to HIV?

There is just something so profoundly irritating about seeing the 1000th thread on "I have thoughts about implications for personal liberty" from someone who has obviously not done even a cursory google search on infectious disease control.
 
What constitutes a reasonable answer and what if that reasonable answer finds no receptive audience? I think some of the outrage on our side comes as a result of pushback against those, willfully or not, giving out information that is not backed by established scientific standards.
Oh, I definitely have to pushback against a lot of misinformation that's been forwarded by people who should either know better or know they don't know.


But there is also a lack of good information, which is the wrong tack to take during a health-crisis. I know that we expect goal-post shifting by the truly hesitant, but there are questions I should be able to answer, because the direct studies would be easy to do. Heck, just yesterday I read a letter by a pediatrician complaining about the lack of biodistribution data. This is not something I should be still putting up with, not when the answer is so easy. (Edit: I actually didn't rebut this part of his letter, so didn't bother looking for the data to see if there was new information)

What's a 'reasonable answer'? It's going to be somewhere in-between the technocratic "you don't deserve to know" and the wacko "Can the PCR test distinguish between the flu and covid, tho?". I'm an anecdote of one, but I definitely have been underserved.
 
Last edited:
Natural immunity as an argument is stupid because it requires getting COVID, which means possible death. It should not be presented as an argument for anti-vaccine loons to twist, because it is getting people killed. And it shouldn't be a vaccine exemption excuse, because that just provides an avenue for anti-vaxxers to cheat the system or get themselves purposefully killed, and removes consistency. The cost of vaccinating people who have already had COVID is very low.

There are other non peer reviewed studies out there that show the opposite being true
I suspect that more study is going to be needed including tracking vaccinated age groups, continued mask wearing and other factors have to be included. e.g Old people got the vaccine first.

Then you are right there is the cost of getting natural immunity. including long term health issues like brain damage.

A CDC study showed Kentucky patients who had COVID and were never vaccinated were more than twice as like to get reinfected than those who have COVID, but got vaccinated.
Another study from Oregon Health and Science University also found those who previously had COVID and were vaccinated afterwards, had greater immunity than non-vaccinated people with natural immunity.

https://www.11alive.com/article/new...erify/85-6b531cb8-b604-46ef-b575-7566a4a6699a
 
Last edited:
It's not happening, and it doesn't matter, because the hospital loads would be far more manageable. Vaccinated people are far less likely to catch it, and even if they do, are less likely to spread it, and are infectious for a far shorter time span. Look at infection maps or data on spread.
It's why I say we're not ready. If the conversation is not managed properly, it will come across as goal-post shifting. This happens less if expectations are managed. Right now, we're acting like the unvaccinated a threat to the vaccinated (or our kids), so if the flip happens it will be easy to misunderstand. Hospitalizations are going to become manageable regardless, because Delta will burn through, so it has to look like goalposts aren't shifting.

The cost of vaccinating people who have already had COVID is very low.

Much higher than you think, because it can be used to show that this is more about control than science. This, coupled with a denial that there's insufficient science, can make people look positively 'anti-science'. Democracies strive to have the consent of the governed, so we risk losing the trust of people we'd prefer to trust us. There's an entire cohort of people who will become 'safe enough' once they fight off Delta, such that forcing them to get a booster isn't worth the fight. You're correct that it risks creating a perverse incentive, which is why I say we're not handling the conversation very well.

As it is, I continue to have negative incentives to get tested. The best I can do on this front is point out that there's a negative incentive. It's like we have an entire of technocrats above us that don't know Thing One about behavioral economics.

Here's an example of someone not handling the conversation well.

that just provides an avenue for anti-vaxxers to cheat the system
There is no 'cheating' the system, we have one goal and that's to control case loads and reach herd immunity if we can. The vaccine provides massive personal benefit, so there's no pretending that someone who's vaccinated has taken some noble step that someone else refused to take. Vaccination makes sense from either a selfish or community level.

Now, maybe in your head they're cheating the system and you can think of a thousand reasons to do it for their own good. But we're not handling the conversation well.


As an aside, I've had pretty good success helping people deal with the lockdowns despite the weird social messaging right now. It comes across as if the vaccinated are 'afraid of' the unvaccinated, so we're locking down. At the individual level, I reframe it as "We cannot afford for you to catch Delta yet, the vaccine means we don't care if we spread it around amongst the vaxxed". It's tended to work, because once I show someone the odds of them being hospitalized, they realize that they should avoid the risk of needing to be hospitalized and re-emphasizes that it's a self-inflicted wound.

I don't emphasize the herd immunity aspect at all, because this has never swayed the remaining cohort (and they even pretend that the AZ cohort was 'scared of the virus' to each other). I just straight up say they're gonna catch Delta eventually, and we want hospital space for when they do. So, not right now, please. Then when they pull out the lack of a local McCullough Protocol, I can dryly say "It needs an RCT, but if it works it sounds like it's nearly as effective as the vaccine".
 
Well, we have a new cabinet. The health minister stays, the foreign minister was fired as he was arriving at a climate change conference in Mexico, and the new one is the utterly incompetent now former Cabinet Chief. So actual international co-operation (geting vaccines and medical supplies) remains hampered.

The interesting is the new cabinet chief who, as provincial health minister, ‘solved’ several problematic social indicators by personally tampering with the figures.
A harbinger for the future?
This is completed with a new ‘security’ minister who, in his previous stint at the job, officially ordered statistical records destroyed (anyone remember the police here using ‘health measures’ as an excuse to kidnap and torture people for the lulz?) and a new minister for science and technology who claims to himself have been surprised at the appointment, which means, in practical terms, that he is not prepared for it.
 
I saw Pfizer said it’s effective in the 5-11 group, which got me wondering—how do they do clinical trials when they don’t have agency over medicine? They can’t sign a liability waiver, can they?
 
They can and do sign liability waivers.
 
Wait until you guess how they got safety data on over 3 million pregnancies.
Well, in general, certain rights are conferred upon exiting the uterine.

I guess it’s the same now as it was when I was growing up. They put me on this experimental treatment to increase spatial reasoning, know were far as no side-effects do I as there.
 
Coronaviruses jump from animals to humans about 400,000 times a year

In a preprint published yesterday researchers estimate that an average of 400,000 people are likely infected with SARS-related coronaviruses every year, in spillovers that never grow into detectable outbreaks.

Small surveys done before COVID-19 erupted have suggested some people in Southeast Asia harbor antibodies against SARS-related coronaviruses. Combining those data with data on how often people encounter bats and how long antibodies remain in the blood, the researchers calculated that some 400,000 undetected human infections with these viruses occur each year across the region.

Although 400,000 infections annually sounds like a lot, Rasmussen says, “in a region with likely hundreds of millions of bats and nearly half a billion people it isn’t that many.” The confidence interval stretches from one to more than 35 million hidden infections per year, however—big enough to “fly the entire population of Rhinolophid bats through,” Rasmussen quips.
_20210915_ecohealthsarsvirusespreprint_secondaryimage.jpg

Bat host species richness * human population count, or “relative spillover risk”.
Writeup Paper
 
Apparently, the Insurance companies aren't doing their COVID measures, so they are back to their usual pay full price for treatment. So Red areas are being hit with a storm of evictions (because federally that got ended by the Reactionary SCOTUS and their states or cities haven't passed ones), the end of enhanced pandemic Unemployment benefits (which was only extended for a certain time period and hasn't been extended again) which will hit red states worse because that just leaves the state-level ones, which they've already gutted pre-pandemic vs blue states, and getting hit way harder with the Virus because they don't mask or vaccine.

It isn't just deaths, which are still stark.
E_bYdQWWQAcQF3h


Annnnnnnd there it is: COVID death rate by county since 6/30/21 by Trump 2020 vote, now including Florida, updated as of 9/15/21.

Note that besides Nebraska, this doesn’t include several thousand deaths whose county of residence is unknown. Also, some of Florida’s deaths to date still won’t show up for another couple of weeks.

FWIW, the death rate in the reddest bracket is 8.2x higher than in the bluest bracket. Of course, there's only a tiny number of people living in either of those, so it's probably more representative to look at the 5.5x ratio between the 80-90 & 10-20 brackets.

E_bciU_XoAw58L8


For those wondering, here’s the sources: Case/Death data via @JHUSystems (@nytimes for Utah, @CDCgov for Florida).
2020 county election data via the FEC and/or state SoS websites. Alaska data via @RRHElections

Since this thread is getting some attention: Here, again, is why the GOP thinks “killing their base to own the libs” is STILL a wise strategy for the midterms:
https://acasignups.net/21/09/12/simple-actuarial-analysis
.
These areas are bringing on themselves economic ruin. A bunch of families are going to rack up medical debt, productive workers are going to die or have permanent health impacts, local health care is going to crumble or die, because of burnout of workers and people not paying for their medical care. Rural hospitals already have a mismatch in terms of closures, between states that did expand Medicaid or not.

Medicaid-Hospital-Expansion-Map-1.png


In a sane political system, the GOP members in districts with important rural hospitals would be bargaining for money to save them, and expansions of aid for their residents. Instead, they are grinding the gears of all government to a halt and focusing entirely on culture wars, hoping the gears of the economy can be filled with enough of their voter's bodies, to drag down the economic recovery so they can win the Midterms.
 
Last edited:
They are closing hospitals in USA too? That looks familiar...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom