Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel.

[EnglishEdward]

What is it with this "jab" thing? I always knew these as "vaccine shots" not jabs. When did this terminology change and why?

I don't really care tbh, but as long as we're asking questions

There is no politics to this.

In my opinion the best technical terms in the English language are a
"vaccine injection" or an
"innoculation against Covid-19" or
similar.

But people are efficient/lazy?, and prefer to use the three letter term "jab".


Regarding other thread contributions;

I have no idea whether there is causal link between people voting for Donald Trump and dying
of Covid-19 or not, my point was that the graphs included in this thread do not demonstrate that.
I suspect that there may be a stronger relationship between those who don't vote at all and
those who remain unvaccinated or die of Covid-19, but I have no evidence to support my hunch.

I could idly postulate that perhaps people who vote Green are better at growing runner beans.

 

[Samson]

I have no idea whether there is causal link between people voting for Donald Trump and dying
of Covid-19 or not, my point was that the graphs included in this thread do not demonstrate that.

There is very unlikely to be a causal relationship, the postulate is that there is correlation. The suspicion is that there is correlation between being a trump voter and not getting vaccinated, and a causal relationship between not getting vaccinated and dying of covid. There is not full scientific proof of this in this thread, but it is not that much of a stretch and I expect the data is out there to get very close.

I suspect that there may be a stronger relationship between those who don't vote at all and
those who remain unvaccinated or die of Covid-19, but I have no evidence to support my hunch.

There is pretty good evidence of this. See how much longer the Biden arrow is than the Trump one in Drakes graph? That indicates that the neither voters (who I guess are dominated by the didn't vote) are less likely to be vaccinated. Since less than half the US voted (159 million votes cast, population 328.2 million) I THINK this means they are more likely to be jabbed than Trump voters.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Thank you for your prompt response @ Samson. I am not going to quibble it.

I note that Russia has now overtaken Peru in Covid-19 deaths

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

5. Russia 200,625
6. Peru 199,060

and Vlad Putin has an election coming up.

 

[amadeus]

Quickiepedia says Russia already had the election and Pootie-Poot’s party lost a few seats but still have a supermajority.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Thank you. There we are. Go to sleep for a day and the world changes.

 

[amadeus]

You shouldn't necessarily infer that the electorate had any effect on the result. So, it's changed less than you think.

 

[EnglishEdward]

This is what, reference to Stalin stating that what is important is who counts the votes.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Vaccinating people without bothering to check their immunity in the norm. If you step on a rusty nail and don't remember when you got your last tetanus booster, they just give you another one, they don't bother testing your immune response.

People who have had COVID and tested positive for it tend to have recent documentation of such. You don't get another tetanus shot if you're on record having had one 6 months ago.

Probably because more study is needed to see how strong natural immunity is against those with vaccines. Thus the idea of booster shots for everyone that wants it to increase covid protection

More study is needed in general. I'm not against vaccines, I'm against forcing people to take them with minimal/broad basis in a way that has been used to outright justify atrocity in our own history.

If people want to take the vaccine or get boosters, they should get them. The only real question is who to prioritize among those that want them (I would advocate giving to unvaccinated that want vaccines before giving boosters, if it's a choice between the two).

This might not make sense, but the US is currently in crisis and sitting on a lot of vaccine. With the hospitols filling and lots of dying, this maybe a way to stopping more people getting sick and requiring hospital care.

There must be at least some dishonesty going on here. Not from you, but from the general narrative about case loads in hospitals. Consider:

• There are only four states with a 1st dose vaccination rate < 50%
  • The worst state among these 4, Idaho, is at 46%.
• Supposed "bad" states like Texas and Florida are at 59% and 66% respectively. The narrative on FL is particularly stupid, given it's an above-average state in this metric.
  
• According to any data I can find, vaccinated people almost never die from COVID and are rarely hospitalized for COVID.
  • Though notably, if you're hospitalized for any reason and test positive for COVID, it's a "COVID hospitalization", so even among cases that are "hospitalized", the vaccinated hospitalization rate is inflated (as is the rate in general).

If we are to believe vaccinations work (which we should), we expect COVID hospitalization rate to decrease a lot with > 50% vaccination rate, and thus that pressure on hospitals right now is a fraction of what it was in 2020. Not quite a 1:1 decrease with vaccination %, but not too far from that either. That is why people are getting the vaccine, right?

Is that what we observe?

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...ing-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-in-august-2021/

Mostly yes. 700 deaths/day is bad, but it's way below the load on hospitals in Apr 2020 (~2000) or especially this past winter (peaked ~3000!). So if hospitals are *****ing about being "full", they are advertising their incompetence, period. We've had two massively higher spikes, the demand is obvious/easily anticipated at this point, and somehow they're floundering anyway. Maybe they shouldn't be dumping personnel/cutting back capacity in the middle of a pandemic and then complaining about it?

Here is AHA's data on it. I don't know WTH Georgia is doing, but it seems most hospitals are otherwise managing https://www.aha.org/statistics/fast-facts-us-hospitals . Unless we're anticipating a major spike in spite of increasing vaccination rates, I don't see why we should buy hospital capacity arguments in the broad sense.

 

[amadeus]

Mostly yes. 700 deaths/day is bad, but it's way below the load on hospitals in Apr 2020 (~2000) or especially this past winter (peaked ~3000!). So if hospitals are *****ing about being "full"

Hospitals tend to fill up when patients live rather than die.

 

[Drakle]

People who have had COVID and tested positive for it tend to have recent documentation of such. You don't get another tetanus shot if you're on record having had one 6 months ago.

More study is needed in general. I'm not against vaccines, I'm against forcing people to take them with minimal/broad basis in a way that has been used to outright justify atrocity in our own history.

If people want to take the vaccine or get boosters, they should get them. The only real question is who to prioritize among those that want them (I would advocate giving to unvaccinated that want vaccines before giving boosters, if it's a choice between the two).

There must be at least some dishonesty going on here. Not from you, but from the general narrative about case loads in hospitals. Consider:

• There are only four states with a 1st dose vaccination rate < 50%
  • The worst state among these 4, Idaho, is at 46%.
• Supposed "bad" states like Texas and Florida are at 59% and 66% respectively. The narrative on FL is particularly stupid, given it's an above-average state in this metric.
  
• According to any data I can find, vaccinated people almost never die from COVID and are rarely hospitalized for COVID.
  • Though notably, if you're hospitalized for any reason and test positive for COVID, it's a "COVID hospitalization", so even among cases that are "hospitalized", the vaccinated hospitalization rate is inflated (as is the rate in general).

If we are to believe vaccinations work (which we should), we expect COVID hospitalization rate to decrease a lot with > 50% vaccination rate, and thus that pressure on hospitals right now is a fraction of what it was in 2020. Not quite a 1:1 decrease with vaccination %, but not too far from that either. That is why people are getting the vaccine, right?

Is that what we observe?

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...ing-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s-in-august-2021/

Mostly yes. 700 deaths/day is bad, but it's way below the load on hospitals in Apr 2020 (~2000) or especially this past winter (peaked ~3000!). So if hospitals are *****ing about being "full", they are advertising their incompetence, period. We've had two massively higher spikes, the demand is obvious/easily anticipated at this point, and somehow they're floundering anyway. Maybe they shouldn't be dumping personnel/cutting back capacity in the middle of a pandemic and then complaining about it?

Here is AHA's data on it. I don't know WTH Georgia is doing, but it seems most hospitals are otherwise managing https://www.aha.org/statistics/fast-facts-us-hospitals . Unless we're anticipating a major spike in spite of increasing vaccination rates, I don't see why we should buy hospital capacity arguments in the broad sense.

It's a public health emergency. It only works with everybody.

When the Nazis were bombing British cities, you can't just say 'oh you can turn off your lights and blackout your curtains, but I will do what I want'. Everybody has to do it, or the cities get bombed.

Florida's vaccination rate has been widely reported, and mentioned in this thread multiple times, to be inflated. Florida opened up its vaccination to younger age groups earlier, because demand was lower, and Florida is both a hub for snowbird tourists and also Latin American Nationals, who came to get vaccinated. Some counties in Florida have over 100% of an age group vaccinated, that's clearly suspect.

Also, it is very dumb to be using data from over a month ago. As I mentioned in this thread, the US is back to 2000 deaths a day. Something I've literally quoted to you. By your own source, that would make COVID the single deadliest killer in the US.

Mocking 'supposdly bad', when Florida is having a daily average of 376.4 deaths, and Texas is having 284.0. Meanwhile 10 Million population Georgia is having more daily deaths than 40 Million populated California. Which as I've pointed out, are mainly in the Republican rural areas that refuse vaccinations. Not the vaccinated coastal cities where most Californians live.

Also, Texas vaccination number is 50% and Floridas on paper is still only 56%

 

[warpus]

We've been calling vaccinations jabs for years, for example here's a state government saying "get the flu jab" in 2014.

Maybe it's a British and/or Australian thing and I just never noticed. It seems to have caught on in North America too, unless it's always been used here too and I just never noticed. Unfortunately twitter links don't work for me.. I mean, they do, but i have to open them up in incognito, which is annoying to do every time. Twitter is a cesspool of all the worst parts of humanity squeezed into a space, so it's probably best I continue staying away from it anyhow

 

[Lexicus]

(stuff)

Also, just as an aside, LMAO at trying to make arguments about vaccine efficacy by using state-level aggregate data, what a joke.

More study is needed in general. I'm not against vaccines, I'm against forcing people to take them with minimal/broad basis in a way that has been used to outright justify atrocity in our own history.

Perhaps ironically, the actual Nazis loosened vaccine mandates because they believed if your natural immune system was too weak to fight off disease, you deserved to die (and your death only strengthened the Aryan bloodline).

 

[Samson]

Perhaps ironically, the actual Nazis loosened vaccine mandates because they believed if your natural immune system was too weak to fight off disease, you deserved to die (and your death only strengthened the Aryan bloodline).

So that is where Newsmax got the idea. From my earlier post:

I've always thought about vaccines, and I always think about just nature, and the way everything works. And I feel like a vaccination in a weird way is just generally kind of going against nature. Like, I mean, if there is some disease out there -- maybe there's just an ebb and flow to life where something's supposed to wipe out a certain amount of people, and that's just kind of the way evolution goes. Vaccines kind of stand in the way of that. - July 9, 2021, edition of Newsmax's Rob Schmitt Tonight​

 

[bernie14]

What does?

Cards on the table: you seem to be channeling Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche. His premise is faulty based on my observations above.

don’t know who that was, had to look him up. aside from basic knowledge in biochemistry, virology and immunology, i based my speculation more on this article I read in Forbes (link to pdf is available in article).

5. Antigenic drift: A gradual or punctuated accumulation of antigenic variation that eventually
leads to current vaccine failure. Worst case is that this drift combines with significant
antigenic sin (vaccination resulting in an immune response that is dominated by antibodies
to previously experienced viruses/vaccines) meaning that it becomes difficult to
revaccinate to induce antibodies to the new strains. Genetic and antigenic drift are almost
inevitable. Antigenic sin has not yet been reported for SARS-CoV-2 so we consider this
possibility less likely.
Likelihood: Almost certain. Impact: Medium.

But what I actually said is that the medium and long-term effects of covid infection are in fact as unknown to us as the medium and long-term side effects of vaccination. So your "playing the odds" just seems like a pretty dumb move to me, my gut feeling is you are vastly overestimating the danger posed by the vaccine, underestimating the danger posed by the virus, or some combination of the two. We know that covid can inflict long-term organ damage already so I just don't agree with your analysis of the relative risk.

nah, me "playing the odds" is calling for statistics to set policy. I am not a betting man or a fortune teller and fortunately for me, my thought process has very little to do with your gut.

 

[Lexicus]

So that is where Newsmax got the idea. From my earlier post:

I've always thought about vaccines, and I always think about just nature, and the way everything works. And I feel like a vaccination in a weird way is just generally kind of going against nature. Like, I mean, if there is some disease out there -- maybe there's just an ebb and flow to life where something's supposed to wipe out a certain amount of people, and that's just kind of the way evolution goes. Vaccines kind of stand in the way of that. - July 9, 2021, edition of Newsmax's Rob Schmitt Tonight​

Damn, I was expecting him to look like Tom Hanks in Castaway but he wears unnatural suits and quaffs his hair with unnatural chemicals

nah, me "playing the odds" is calling for statistics to set policy.

What statistics? The ones we don't have about long-term vaccine side effects, or the ones we don't have about long-term covid effects?

 

[Drakle]

Anyway, back to the earlier stuff, It's amazing that people are trying to pretend that Republicans being anti-vaxxers is some mystery.

And what do you know, Fox New Derangement pipes straight into the real world. In Montana

Fox News and the Broad Right-Wing Disinformation Sphere should be on trial for mass murder.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hospitals tend to fill up when patients live rather than die.

Read the argument in full and try again. You are either claiming that vaccines don't significantly reduce hospitalization rate (which seems inconsistent with your earlier posts), or posting something non-sequitur to the post you're quoting.

 

[bernie14]

There is no politics to this.

In my opinion the best technical terms in the English language are a
"vaccine injection" or an
"innoculation against Covid-19" or
similar.

But people are efficient/lazy?, and prefer to use the three letter term "jab".


Regarding other thread contributions;

I have no idea whether there is causal link between people voting for Donald Trump and dying
of Covid-19 or not, my point was that the graphs included in this thread do not demonstrate that.
I suspect that there may be a stronger relationship between those who don't vote at all and
those who remain unvaccinated or die of Covid-19, but I have no evidence to support my hunch.

I could idly postulate that perhaps people who vote Green are better at growing runner beans.

I don’t get it either, trump is an antivaxxer who is constantly praising himself for his "operation warp speed"

 

[bernie14]

Damn, I was expecting him to look like Tom Hanks in Castaway but he wears unnatural suits and quaffs his hair with unnatural chemicals



What statistics? The ones we don't have about long-term vaccine side effects, or the ones we don't have about long-term covid effects?

#560 you are "lost in the context"

Edit: here are some more links

Kids and COVID: why young immune systems are still on top

Think Twice Before Giving the COVID Vax to Healthy Kids

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

Another reason to like llamas...

Llama antibodies have 'significant potential' as potent COVID-19 treatment (medicalxpress.com)