Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
- Status
I am in favor of representing the Chinese Imperial Examination System but I dont beleive that UB is the right way to do it. It was the concept of the idea that was so revolutionary and profound not the buildings. UBs are buildings that were architecturally and historically important in that civilization and pavillions were/are one of the most important examples of Chinese archetecture. The Examination System is better represented as UP. To me its like just representing the Persian Satrapay system with an obscure building rather than a UP which its supposed to be.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
Forums? Exchanges? Supermarkets?
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
I wouldn't call the British or American UB as culturally historical...
Edit: Same with the Japanese Shale Plant
Edit: Same with the Japanese Shale Plant
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Tested China for a bit.
I'm not so certain that the second UHV requirement works.
I was certain that I was the first to Compass and beat out Greece by 3 turns to Paper but the two techs remained X'ed out on the list of goals and later, it said I failed.
I'm not so certain that the second UHV requirement works.
I was certain that I was the first to Compass and beat out Greece by 3 turns to Paper but the two techs remained X'ed out on the list of goals and later, it said I failed.
More like 1050, but whose counting anyway.
That one dude also came up with this thingamajig
PS How about that algebra and calculus
Qiu
Warlord
Hi, everyone. I'm from China and Dawn of RFC is one of my favorite CIV4 mod... Thank you for your endeavors in bringing a more enjoyable and historically accurate Chinese civ, and I hope my suggestions about Chinese civ as follows would be helpful
UB
Personally I appreciate the ideas that the Chinese UB should be linked with scholar-bucreurcy society and the unique imperial examination system. However, as pointed out before, examination hall" is somewhat odd for a historical Chinese UB. In fact, the places where the imperial examination were taken were kennel-like small houses
.
also
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...am_cells-large.jpg/800px-Exam_cells-large.jpg
The reason is that the quantity of applicants were always too large, and cheating on the examination was easier to be monitored in this shape. The final step of the imperial examination (the palace examination) indeed carried out orally in a big hall, but that was the main hall of the imperial palace (and btw the examiner nominally was the emperor himself). So that the so called examination hall didnt ever have existed actually.
My suggestion for the Chinese UB is "Confucian Academies" or "Imperial Academy".
The "Confucian Academies", so called "Shuyuan", were private schools where the children came from ordinary families could receive basic Confucius-centered education and finally became able to join the imperial examination. Also the teachers there could concentrate in studies and research without interference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academies_(Shuyuan)
The "Imperial Academy", so called "Taixue", was ancient Chinese national schools where elected students assembled and engaged in studying classic Chinese philosophies such as Confucianism and Taoism as well as Chinese literature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixue
The problem is that, the Confucius Academies originated around AD725, so it should replace university rather than library in the game. The Imperial Academy, although existed much long ago (3CE), did not too much for the imperial examination system. Imperial examination system didn't exist until AD605.
I remember in the former visions the Chinese UB was Confucian Academy which replace university(but a little weaker than normal university) and unlocked by paper technology. I think that was a wonderful idea. Why should it be removed. An much earlier university could help a lot for the race for Music and the four great inventions. (paper can be researched by great scientist much early and there is no doubt that the chinese civ would go straightly for it) . Maybe the return of Confucius as the eight religion was the main reason, but anyway it can be simply renamed as "Academies of Classical Learning" or "Classic Academy" or even "Shuyuan"
UP
Since the paper technology is placed in the middle in the tech tree (although it is said the earliest archaeological fragments of paper derive from the 2nd century BC in China), the paper technology based UB cannot help early Chinese civ. I agree to make the UP to guarantee the early research rate. However, the buff of terrains could strongly enhanced China already and why not links the UP to the scholar-bucreurcy society as mentioned before? Anyway it is up to you and besides, both UP and UB concentrating in the middle age would be boring since Chinese civ can start in BC3000 and there should be something unique for the BC3000 start. That's really a long game.
For the name of the UP, I appreciated Leoreth for describing the Chinese civ as the Cradle of Civilization or something like that, but even Chinese ourselves seldom say that. As a result of the far distance, the Europeans didn't know too much about the Chinese civilization until the Enlighten period IMO. Also the ancient Chinese civ were relatively "late" than Mesopotamian civs and other civs in much aspect. The technologies of bronze working, iron making, horseback ride were all said to be from west and middle Asia in history. In spite of that the Chinese caught up quickly and became even ahead during the Tang and Song dynasties. Maybe the UP should be changed to "Techs that already discovered yet cost -25% research". For the Chinese fell behind after the middle age somewhat should partly be to blamed that the ancient Chinese became too proud of themselves and unwilling to learn from outer world anymore until Opium War.
Anyway this UP doesn't mean that the Chinese civ in game should and could go ahead in every tech, which I agree with Leoreth.
I have no idea of the name for the current UP yet, but if the UP were "specialist produce more research" as suggested, I think "the power of the Four Occupations" would be the choice. The "four divisions model society" has rooted in China and other East Asia countries for two thousand years. In such society, scholar-bucreurcy class was highly valued and unlike caste systems, anyone could finally join the top scholar-bucreurcy class by hard study and success in the open imperial examination. Since the scholar class were highly appreciated and mixed with the bucreurcy class, scholars could freely devoted in study. That may present the bonus GP economy in the game well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_occupations_(East_Asia)
UHV
The four great invention UHV is interesting and historical accurate, as discussed in Chinese civ forums many times. The cathedral UHV may be one of the most complicated UHV object in RFC, which would make a RFC newbie confused(often Chinese. It tests the overall game skill of the players and could be rather challenging, which fits a long time civ such as the Chinese civ well, so I think it OK. But what does the 120 army UHV mean? In game it is not interesting and will mess the economy up. In the original RFC vision, we can build 120 warriors and win a historical victory at once. But in Dawn, I have to delete all of them one by one because there is another UHV object left... In history it is neither accurate. In ancient China there seldom existed a large army that beyond self-protection expect during civil wars... The third object in original RFC often is functional, indeed. It presents the "dream" of that civ ever had or could had. Bu in my opinion the ancient Chinese never dreamed of conquering the Asia or the world (in the game, 120 units really could get it). They usually content with their fertile homeland... So the former UHV of four golden ages until certain age or something else would be definitely better.
Terrain
As far as I know, the maps of Europe (especially England) and Japan in RFC have been enlarged and the inner land part of China has been shrunk for the reason of gameplay balance. In Dawn, as result of other tweak, Chinese civ had become even weaker. So the terrain around Xi'an has been buffed and more food resources have been added in recent visions. In my option, the inner land part of China are too weak and inaccurate. I don't mean the north-west part and Silk Road cities; in fact it is too dry there and cannot support too much population even now. By the way, the Xian (Chang'an) areas actually cannot always support such an enormous population as many people think. Xi'an did used to very fertile in and before Han dynasty, but after then for the reason of insane chop and whips as well as war, the environment was badly destroyed. In Tang dynasty it did hold more than 1 million populate, but many of them were feed by the great canal. Because the canal was destroyed in the civil war and the food cannot be transported to Xi'an easily anymore, the following Song dynasty had to move the capital to Kaifeng.
However the southwest part is the problem. The Sichuan area (including Chongqing) (in the game it is represented as the city of Chengdu or Chongqing) in the southwest have always been one of the most popular area of China. Now it holds a population of more than 100 million. Maybe it should be buffed?
Historical Capital
The Chinese civ started in Beijing in 3000BC was absolutely wrong, indeed. The yellow river bank area was the cradle of ancient Chinese kingdoms. I think either of Luoyang, Anyang, Kaifeng and Changan (Xi'an) could be OK. The capital always kept in moving and the city names frequently got changed in ancient China, so It doesn't matter too much whatever cities be called and wherever capital be placed in the game, in my opinion. As a macro simulation game, I don't think it is necessary to be perfectly accurate in every issue. That means insane work of coding. However the capital in AD600 should be Xi'an, according to historical archives.
After rescanned from Mongolian occupation, the Ming dynasty did set capital in Nanjing. However, 50 years later, they moved capital to Beijing in order to enhance the defense against Mongolians. Maybe firstly set capital in Nanjing when ripsaws and then automatically move capital to Beijing after recapturing it could be more historical accurate. And after then, Beijing have always been the capital of China, except for a relatively short period that the Nationalists moved capital to Nanjing for twenty years and escaped to Chongqing for several years during WWII.
City Placement
As mentioned before, the inner land part of China has been shrunk. As a result, some of the city placement became rather odd, in my opinion. i.e. the city of Luoyang should always be near the Yellow river and far away from the Yangtze River, but it can also be built just 1N of the Yangtze River....However, that is not a serious problem...
Thank you for reading such a long post... I hope my suggestions would be of use. And please forgive my poor English
btw. I am studying in Japan (now on summer vacation so stayed in China). If it is needed, I am very glad to inquire and make some suggestions about the Japanese civ as well.
UB
Personally I appreciate the ideas that the Chinese UB should be linked with scholar-bucreurcy society and the unique imperial examination system. However, as pointed out before, examination hall" is somewhat odd for a historical Chinese UB. In fact, the places where the imperial examination were taken were kennel-like small houses
.
also
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...am_cells-large.jpg/800px-Exam_cells-large.jpg
The reason is that the quantity of applicants were always too large, and cheating on the examination was easier to be monitored in this shape. The final step of the imperial examination (the palace examination) indeed carried out orally in a big hall, but that was the main hall of the imperial palace (and btw the examiner nominally was the emperor himself). So that the so called examination hall didnt ever have existed actually.
My suggestion for the Chinese UB is "Confucian Academies" or "Imperial Academy".
The "Confucian Academies", so called "Shuyuan", were private schools where the children came from ordinary families could receive basic Confucius-centered education and finally became able to join the imperial examination. Also the teachers there could concentrate in studies and research without interference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academies_(Shuyuan)
The "Imperial Academy", so called "Taixue", was ancient Chinese national schools where elected students assembled and engaged in studying classic Chinese philosophies such as Confucianism and Taoism as well as Chinese literature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taixue
The problem is that, the Confucius Academies originated around AD725, so it should replace university rather than library in the game. The Imperial Academy, although existed much long ago (3CE), did not too much for the imperial examination system. Imperial examination system didn't exist until AD605.
I remember in the former visions the Chinese UB was Confucian Academy which replace university(but a little weaker than normal university) and unlocked by paper technology. I think that was a wonderful idea. Why should it be removed. An much earlier university could help a lot for the race for Music and the four great inventions. (paper can be researched by great scientist much early and there is no doubt that the chinese civ would go straightly for it) . Maybe the return of Confucius as the eight religion was the main reason, but anyway it can be simply renamed as "Academies of Classical Learning" or "Classic Academy" or even "Shuyuan"
UP
Since the paper technology is placed in the middle in the tech tree (although it is said the earliest archaeological fragments of paper derive from the 2nd century BC in China), the paper technology based UB cannot help early Chinese civ. I agree to make the UP to guarantee the early research rate. However, the buff of terrains could strongly enhanced China already and why not links the UP to the scholar-bucreurcy society as mentioned before? Anyway it is up to you and besides, both UP and UB concentrating in the middle age would be boring since Chinese civ can start in BC3000 and there should be something unique for the BC3000 start. That's really a long game.
For the name of the UP, I appreciated Leoreth for describing the Chinese civ as the Cradle of Civilization or something like that, but even Chinese ourselves seldom say that.
As a result of the far distance, the Europeans didn't know too much about the Chinese civilization until the Enlighten period IMO. Also the ancient Chinese civ were relatively "late" than Mesopotamian civs and other civs in much aspect. The technologies of bronze working, iron making, horseback ride were all said to be from west and middle Asia in history. In spite of that the Chinese caught up quickly and became even ahead during the Tang and Song dynasties. Maybe the UP should be changed to "Techs that already discovered yet cost -25% research". For the Chinese fell behind after the middle age somewhat should partly be to blamed that the ancient Chinese became too proud of themselves and unwilling to learn from outer world anymore until Opium War. Anyway this UP doesn't mean that the Chinese civ in game should and could go ahead in every tech, which I agree with Leoreth. I have no idea of the name for the current UP yet, but if the UP were "specialist produce more research" as suggested, I think "the power of the Four Occupations" would be the choice. The "four divisions model society" has rooted in China and other East Asia countries for two thousand years. In such society, scholar-bucreurcy class was highly valued and unlike caste systems, anyone could finally join the top scholar-bucreurcy class by hard study and success in the open imperial examination. Since the scholar class were highly appreciated and mixed with the bucreurcy class, scholars could freely devoted in study. That may present the bonus GP economy in the game well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_occupations_(East_Asia)
UHV
The four great invention UHV is interesting and historical accurate, as discussed in Chinese civ forums many times. The cathedral UHV may be one of the most complicated UHV object in RFC, which would make a RFC newbie confused(often Chinese
. It tests the overall game skill of the players and could be rather challenging, which fits a long time civ such as the Chinese civ well, so I think it OK. But what does the 120 army UHV mean? In game it is not interesting and will mess the economy up. In the original RFC vision, we can build 120 warriors and win a historical victory at once. But in Dawn, I have to delete all of them one by one because there is another UHV object left... In history it is neither accurate. In ancient China there seldom existed a large army that beyond self-protection expect during civil wars... The third object in original RFC often is functional, indeed. It presents the "dream" of that civ ever had or could had. Bu in my opinion the ancient Chinese never dreamed of conquering the Asia or the world (in the game, 120 units really could get it). They usually content with their fertile homeland... So the former UHV of four golden ages until certain age or something else would be definitely better. Terrain
As far as I know, the maps of Europe (especially England) and Japan in RFC have been enlarged and the inner land part of China has been shrunk for the reason of gameplay balance. In Dawn, as result of other tweak, Chinese civ had become even weaker. So the terrain around Xi'an has been buffed and more food resources have been added in recent visions. In my option, the inner land part of China are too weak and inaccurate. I don't mean the north-west part and Silk Road cities; in fact it is too dry there and cannot support too much population even now. By the way, the Xian (Chang'an) areas actually cannot always support such an enormous population as many people think. Xi'an did used to very fertile in and before Han dynasty, but after then for the reason of insane chop and whips as well as war, the environment was badly destroyed. In Tang dynasty it did hold more than 1 million populate, but many of them were feed by the great canal. Because the canal was destroyed in the civil war and the food cannot be transported to Xi'an easily anymore, the following Song dynasty had to move the capital to Kaifeng.
However the southwest part is the problem. The Sichuan area (including Chongqing) (in the game it is represented as the city of Chengdu or Chongqing) in the southwest have always been one of the most popular area of China. Now it holds a population of more than 100 million. Maybe it should be buffed?
Historical Capital
The Chinese civ started in Beijing in 3000BC was absolutely wrong, indeed. The yellow river bank area was the cradle of ancient Chinese kingdoms. I think either of Luoyang, Anyang, Kaifeng and Changan (Xi'an) could be OK. The capital always kept in moving and the city names frequently got changed in ancient China, so It doesn't matter too much whatever cities be called and wherever capital be placed in the game, in my opinion. As a macro simulation game, I don't think it is necessary to be perfectly accurate in every issue. That means insane work of coding. However the capital in AD600 should be Xi'an, according to historical archives.
After rescanned from Mongolian occupation, the Ming dynasty did set capital in Nanjing. However, 50 years later, they moved capital to Beijing in order to enhance the defense against Mongolians. Maybe firstly set capital in Nanjing when ripsaws and then automatically move capital to Beijing after recapturing it could be more historical accurate. And after then, Beijing have always been the capital of China, except for a relatively short period that the Nationalists moved capital to Nanjing for twenty years and escaped to Chongqing for several years during WWII.
City Placement
As mentioned before, the inner land part of China has been shrunk. As a result, some of the city placement became rather odd, in my opinion. i.e. the city of Luoyang should always be near the Yellow river and far away from the Yangtze River, but it can also be built just 1N of the Yangtze River....However, that is not a serious problem...
Thank you for reading such a long post... I hope my suggestions would be of use. And please forgive my poor English
btw. I am studying in Japan (now on summer vacation so stayed in China). If it is needed, I am very glad to inquire and make some suggestions about the Japanese civ as well.
I like this UP but dont you think it would be more appropriate if the UP was related to the Imperial Examination; link below. Im not Chinese so feel free to correct me if im wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination
BTW: Thnx for backing my point on the UB
Qiu
Warlord
Yes, I think linking UP to the Imperial Examination is also a good idea. However, the Chinese civ could start in both BC3000 and AD600. Since the Imperial Examination started in AD 605, if both UP and UB are related to the Imperial Examination, there will be nothing unique left for the BC3000-start game play. (the Chinese UU is overall useless in UHV)
And, perhaps the name of UP could be "the Power of Selected Bureaus"?
Because in ancient time, many civs tended to appoint officers just by their class or lineage, but the Chinese carefully selected officers by systematic examinations, which usually made the bureaus more skillful and relatively more devoting.Personally I would like the Chinese UB to be Confucian Acadamy because:
a) The Chinese get a technological advantage through the middle ages like their supposed to
b) As soon as everybody else makes universities (renaissance) things even out and China starts to stagnant.
As far as the UP is concerned; didnt Confucius have a similar principle for examination? If so we can start it earlier?
The only thing with urs is that its too much like the Indian Caste UHV
a) The Chinese get a technological advantage through the middle ages like their supposed to
b) As soon as everybody else makes universities (renaissance) things even out and China starts to stagnant.
As far as the UP is concerned; didnt Confucius have a similar principle for examination? If so we can start it earlier?
The only thing with urs is that its too much like the Indian Caste UHV
True, but it's worth a test (and making the Babylonian AI stay away from the UHV wonders is another possibility).
I disagree. Even your examples, the Salon and the Forum, rather encapsulate certain aspects of their civs culture than mere architecture (how does the typical Salon look?), and without taking a comprehensive look at it, that's the case for the majority of UBs. Actually I've always thought that those added for architectural reasons were often only for a lack of better ideas, and their effects were often uninspired, because an architechture rarely implies an effect.
All of that doesn't really help the problems China has.
"Enhanced", not invented, is the key word here. Arabs were basically the Americans of the Middle Ages. And yes, the Indians were advanced as well, but iirc they lost their lead earlier than China did.
Thanks for testing. Do you know when your goal was shown as failed? I'm still trying to figure out if my rewritten code for the tech goals works, and if starting techs of spawning civs count.Tomorrow's Dawn said:
ThanksHi, everyone. I'm from China and Dawn of RFC is one of my favorite CIV4 mod... Thank you for your endeavors in bringing a more enjoyable and historically accurate Chinese civ, and I hope my suggestions about Chinese civ as follows would be helpful
Your input is greatly appreciated. I hope you don't mind if I cut down your quotes a little to keep my reply from becoming even longer.The name was made up here in this thread as general representation of the concept. But it seems that you have good alternate names that encompass the same effects.
Both would work in my opinion, even as a library replacement, although they came into use much later historically than they'd be in the game.
Yeah, the reason was that Confucianism became a religion again and "Confucian Academy" is the name of the Confucian cathedral. Also, when you have Paper, you're already through most of the tech race (you have to research Music earlier to make it to the cathedrals, and Compass usually comes before it as well). I for my part found the ability to hire three scientists early on invaluable and it has a great synergy with China's large population.I remember in the former visions the Chinese UB was Confucius Academy which replace university(but a little weaker than normal university) and unlocked by paper technology. I think that was a wonderful idea. Why should it be removed. An much earlier university could help a lot for the race for Music and the four great inventions. (paper can be researched by great scientist much early and there is no doubt that the chinese civ would go straightly for it) . Maybe the return of Confucius as the eight religion was the main reason, but anyway it can be simply renamed as "Academies of Classical Learning" or "Classic Academy" or even "Shuyuan"
Yeah, that's where Civ's Eurocentrism shows because it placed Paper that late because that's when it became known in Europe.
Yeah, it has already been renamed to the Power of Scholar-Bureaucracy.For the name of the UP, I appreciated Leoreth for describing the Chinese civ as the Cradle of Civilization or something like that, but even Chinese ourselves seldom say that.
An effect like that is already active for everyone (techs that are widespread get cheaper). Also, unlike the current UP, it doesn't help China get early to all those techs it needs to be first to (it's basically Mathematics, Calendar, Music, Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing Press).In spite of that the Chinese caught up quickly and became even ahead during the Tang and Song dynasties. Maybe the UP should be changed to "Techs that already discovered yet cost -25% research"
Yeah, more research for specialists was suggested here but I felt I added too many specialist oriented UPs already (Italy and India). I somehow feel that this effect would make a good Chinese wonder, though.
Agreed. What I like about the cathedral goal is that it superficially looks like a religious goal, but has implications for expansion (you need eight cities) and research as well.UHV
The four great invention UHV is interesting and historical accurate, as discussed in Chinese civ forums many times. The cathedral UHV may be one of the most complicated UHV object in RFC, which would make a RFC newbie confused(often Chinese
Makes sense (I was even close to remove it in favor for the four inventions goal), so maybe the golden ages will return.
The problem with that area is that cities there take away too much space from the Khmer, who are already cramped now that there's also Indonesia to the south, so I don't want to make it too attractive to settle there.
Currently the capital is always Chang'an/Xi'an. There's no set capital for a respawn yet, but I'll soon add that it'll be Beijing (I guess the Nanjing episode can be safely skipped).
Yeah, but I can't really do much about it because adding land is out of the question. Central China can easily support 3-4 cities (not counting coastal cities, that is), but for gameplay reasons, you're more likely to build less.
Thanks for posting, and I (who admittedly can't be the best judge of English skills myselfThank you for reading such a long post... I hope my suggestions would be of use. And please forgive my poor English
btw. I am studying in Japan (now on summer vacation so stayed in China). If it is needed, I am very glad to inquire and make some suggestions about the Japanese civ as well.
) didn't notice any problems with your language.Notes on Japan are much appreciated
Qiu
Warlord
As far as I know, Confucius did emphasize the importance of virtues and ethics and believed that only the best moralized man could become the officers to lead the people. Before the establishment of the Imperial Extermination, such moralized men were elected by local communities. However, usually only the men who came from rich or powerful families could be elected so the emperor began to select officers through examination.
Qiu
Warlord
By the way the Korean UB in the BTS, Seowon, was the same things to the Chinese Confucius Academies or so-called "Shuyuan". according to Korean wiki(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seowon) , I found that the Chinese character of "Seowon" are "書院" which is the same as in Chinese.(though I cann't read Korean).
).India was still pretty advanced into the 17th century
Ekolite
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5,451
Had a quick game as China, although I admit I wasn't really going for the UHV's. I like the new UP/UB and I don't think they are too strong. It would be really good if there was some indication of which techs the UP applies to though because this isn't always that clear.
Also I think India definitely needs to be split into two civs, and/or there should be at least one independent city in the area. They are way too strong! And it's kind of annoying seeing a united India in the bronze age when irl this didn't really happen until the British Raj iirc.
Also I think India definitely needs to be split into two civs, and/or there should be at least one independent city in the area. They are way too strong! And it's kind of annoying seeing a united India in the bronze age when irl this didn't really happen until the British Raj iirc.
Yes, India should be split into two (plus) civs. One would be NW India and the other would be more ESE, with a third perhaps minor civ in the south representing Mysore that is unplayable and fairly easily vassalizable with rocketeers a musketman replacement with a lot of first strikes.
Don't know how I can make the Chinese UP visible, although in general it might be good to know which techs are already discovered for tech trading and those various tech goals.
India will get another civ for Muslim India (i.e. Delhi Sultanate and Mughals). Don't know if those Deccan civs really deserve to be in the game, but I'll tune down India's settler output and place some independents there instead.
India will get another civ for Muslim India (i.e. Delhi Sultanate and Mughals). Don't know if those Deccan civs really deserve to be in the game, but I'll tune down India's settler output and place some independents there instead.
Hello Leoreth. I've test-played your lastest SVN version as a Korea, China and Japan. Of course, I've also enjoyed playing your great work and had a blast as usual 
One thing I deeply felt during these three plays is that it is impossible to achive Korea's UHV moreover even survive their neighbors. They have so poor producing and China restricted their expansion to manchuria even at the start.
In order for balancing and they can survive at least, I'd like to suggest some ideas.
1. Change starting year from BC 50 to BC 300. (not restricted in three kingdoms period, go further to Gojoseon and proto three kingdoms period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto–Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea) I thinks this will give some time to Korea before China wide expansion.
2. Add a copper in Korea peninsula.
3. Adjust their historical area and move the starting posion at the border between Korean peninsular and manchuria. (During Gojoseon period, capital was located at that area and called 'Wanggeom-seong', In the Ryre's map, this is south of the Iron) Actually, southern Manchuria was in territory of ancient and classical Korean Kingdoms(Gojoseon, Goguryeo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:History_of_Korea-476.PNG)
All of there ideas(except adding copper idea)are already used in Jarkov's RFC Civilizations in Abundance. You could test Jarkov's mod for balancing of new civs
I hope you will consider these ideas.
One thing I deeply felt during these three plays is that it is impossible to achive Korea's UHV moreover even survive their neighbors. They have so poor producing and China restricted their expansion to manchuria even at the start.
In order for balancing and they can survive at least, I'd like to suggest some ideas.
1. Change starting year from BC 50 to BC 300. (not restricted in three kingdoms period, go further to Gojoseon and proto three kingdoms period. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto–Three_Kingdoms_of_Korea) I thinks this will give some time to Korea before China wide expansion.
2. Add a copper in Korea peninsula.
3. Adjust their historical area and move the starting posion at the border between Korean peninsular and manchuria. (During Gojoseon period, capital was located at that area and called 'Wanggeom-seong', In the Ryre's map, this is south of the Iron) Actually, southern Manchuria was in territory of ancient and classical Korean Kingdoms(Gojoseon, Goguryeo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:History_of_Korea-476.PNG)
All of there ideas(except adding copper idea)are already used in Jarkov's RFC Civilizations in Abundance. You could test Jarkov's mod for balancing of new civs
I hope you will consider these ideas.
- Status
