Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
- Thread starter Leoreth
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Canada is part of America's historical area
New commit is up now, changing a few things to China and India that we discussed earlier:
Indian UP: The Power of Varnas: +1 food from artist, scientist, merchant
Chinese UP: The Power of the Cradle of Civilization: Techs that nobody else has discovered yet cost -25% research
Babylonian UP: The Power of Law: No anarchy in revolutions
Chinese UHV: second goal changed to "be first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing Press", third goal changed to 100 units
Indian UHV: second goal changed to "build 20 temples by 1000 AD"
New Chinese UB: Examination Hall, replaces Library, +30% research, +3 culture, 3 scientist slots
I've also increased China's general research rate and their unit production (to make up for the lost UP). I also tried to enforce a more sensible/historical city placement in China.
Indian UP: The Power of Varnas: +1 food from artist, scientist, merchant
Chinese UP: The Power of the Cradle of Civilization: Techs that nobody else has discovered yet cost -25% research
Babylonian UP: The Power of Law: No anarchy in revolutions
Chinese UHV: second goal changed to "be first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing Press", third goal changed to 100 units
Indian UHV: second goal changed to "build 20 temples by 1000 AD"
New Chinese UB: Examination Hall, replaces Library, +30% research, +3 culture, 3 scientist slots
I've also increased China's general research rate and their unit production (to make up for the lost UP). I also tried to enforce a more sensible/historical city placement in China.
hoplitejoe
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No problem with the UP but the name Cradle of Civilization is normally to do with Mesopotamian civs.
This seems a little pointless, Babylon never really gets a chance to use this as they are normally crushed by either Persia or the Arabs before they get many civics.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
I like the The Power of the Scholar-Bureaucracy Tomorrows Dawn suggested...
I know, I wasn't able to come up with a better name yet. Do you have an idea?
That's the general problem with Babylonia. Every remotely useful UP that works from the beginning makes them overpowered, and most others don't have the time to take effect. The current UP is on the same level as the "no resistance" UP they had in the beginning.
Ah, thanks, totally forgot about that.
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Makes sense; Rhye really like Japan IIRC.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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For Babylon, why not give them a UP for remaining small, thereby discouraging expansion for humans and not overpowering the AI if it does overexpand?
Ok, Now im all for a more powerful China; but this technology overdose might be too much.
As far the UP is concerned in 600 ad China (besides Byzantine and Arabia) is the most advanced civ which means most of the techs they research wont be discovered by discovered by other civs.
It is more fitting that China get a population related UHV not a research based one; there were a bunch of civilizations more or as advanced as China even in Antiquity and the Middle Ages.
The UB is just an stronger version of the Arabian Madrassa and both are library replacements:
Examination Hall: 30% more research, 2 scientists, 2 cutlure
Madrassa: 25% research, 2 scientists and 2 preists
Yeah, I realize that but a technological UHV and UP thats so powerful and doesnt have a time cape. That means that it doesnt even expire like the Mayans. But I can argue for similar technological UP for Greece, Babylon, India, England, Arabia, America and Germany.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
Maybe new Historical goals:
The religious one
The science one
Control 20% of the world population in X (rather then the units)
The religious one
The science one
Control 20% of the world population in X (rather then the units)
Yeah, but a realistically sized Japan would've caused problems anyway.
They had a free Absolutism/Bureaucracy bonus for a time, this resulted in never dying super Babylonia. What about +50% wonder production? AI Babylonia doesn't really get to build many wonders, and maybe it makes wonder relying strategies more viable for the UHV.
(By the way, I'm currently also thinking about giving Pantheon a wonder production buff, so that you can actually build all those classical wonders in time).
It isn't. I'm currently playing as China and while it's easier to be on top, you can't tech away from everyone else. For the human it's an outright necessity to research Music and the four other techs to get the UHV.
As for the AI, I've run a few 3000 BC Spain starts and China was always behind them by 3-4 techs, which is fine in my opinion.
That's by design and is actually the beauty of it in my opinion, because it allows China to get a headstart but fall behind once the others have caught up.
You should read up more on Tang and Song China. It was far ahead of the rest of the world at that time, even the Arab world, and had inventions that preceded the rest of the world by centuries (paper currency for example).
You really can't compare UBs like that.
I don't know if a population requiring goal is a good idea. China is one of the civs where historical behaviour doesn't manifest itself only in the goals, but only in the necessary strategy to achieve it, and a high population is a sensible strategy to meet the tech goal.
Ekolite
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I agree with the idea that a high population being required is implied by the other goals, and so a population goal isn't really neccessary imo.
I really like the sound of a wonder bonus for Babylon, but this may cause problems for Greece and Egypt, who's UHV's rely upon building certain wonders for themselves. Greece has the advantage in that they can probably conquer Babylon, but for Egypt that's an impossiblity.
I really like the sound of a wonder bonus for Babylon, but this may cause problems for Greece and Egypt, who's UHV's rely upon building certain wonders for themselves. Greece has the advantage in that they can probably conquer Babylon, but for Egypt that's an impossiblity.
Cross post with Leoreth
OK, I Just did some research and I think I have found some flaws in your system:
Now as far as the UB is concerned there was no building such as an Examination Hall in Chinese history whatsoever! Buildings are supposed to historical Case in point: Egyptian Obelisk, Roman Forum, French Salon etc. A Pavilion is a very distinct and essential part of Chinese architecture so I do not see any reason why it should be removed. With that said the game representation of the Pavilion as a theater is misplaced and wrong.
As we can see, Pavilions are place with A religious significance and B they are place to relax and meditate which in game term would translate to Happiness.
UP: Pavilion; Provide happiness and allow two priests (you can also add a slight research bonus).
If im right with the Chinese Examination Hall you wanted to represent the system of examination in Imperial China which was based on merit rather than aristocracy. Imo, this is a concept or a way of governing which is not fit to be represented as a UB but rather as a UP. Also I don't understand why you gave research bonuses for this; the Imperial Examination was used mostly for Central Bureaucracy and Military Service and one of its profound effects was lowering Corruption, making the rule of law more established and creating loyalty among the Bureaucracy. So here are my plans:
UP: The Power of Imperial Examination; the cost of maintenance is reduced by 50 to 75% depending on the amount of cities you have.
or the bonus can be: Research, Espionage and Culture require less gold until 1500 ad (to represent the effectiveness of ruling because of this system).
UB: Pavillion; provides 2 happiness, 3 culture and 5% research bonus for each of the Eastern Religions (Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism) present.
If you think that the Chinese lag behind in technology; I would simply recommend that you modify the research values (in Dll and Python) so that China has better research until 1500 ad or Renaissance.
Replies:
I do not want to start a debate but I would kindly disagree. I realize that China was ahead in many aspects but the Arabs made many important contributions in the field of Mathematics and Science. The reasons the Arabs are not acknowledged is because they build on what other civilization had done so people just like to say that they "preserved" knowledge but that is not true because even the Chinese techs like Papermaking and Gunpowder were enhanced by the Arabs before reaching Europe.
And although I am not adept at Indian history i remember that some guy in India discovered and laid the laws of gravity 1000 years before Newton and Im pretty sure India was almost as advanced as China.
OK, I Just did some research and I think I have found some flaws in your system:
Now as far as the UB is concerned there was no building such as an Examination Hall in Chinese history whatsoever! Buildings are supposed to historical Case in point: Egyptian Obelisk, Roman Forum, French Salon etc. A Pavilion is a very distinct and essential part of Chinese architecture so I do not see any reason why it should be removed. With that said the game representation of the Pavilion as a theater is misplaced and wrong.
As we can see, Pavilions are place with A religious significance and B they are place to relax and meditate which in game term would translate to Happiness.
UP: Pavilion; Provide happiness and allow two priests (you can also add a slight research bonus).
If im right with the Chinese Examination Hall you wanted to represent the system of examination in Imperial China which was based on merit rather than aristocracy. Imo, this is a concept or a way of governing which is not fit to be represented as a UB but rather as a UP. Also I don't understand why you gave research bonuses for this; the Imperial Examination was used mostly for Central Bureaucracy and Military Service and one of its profound effects was lowering Corruption, making the rule of law more established and creating loyalty among the Bureaucracy. So here are my plans:
UP: The Power of Imperial Examination; the cost of maintenance is reduced by 50 to 75% depending on the amount of cities you have.
or the bonus can be: Research, Espionage and Culture require less gold until 1500 ad (to represent the effectiveness of ruling because of this system).
UB: Pavillion; provides 2 happiness, 3 culture and 5% research bonus for each of the Eastern Religions (Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism) present.
If you think that the Chinese lag behind in technology; I would simply recommend that you modify the research values (in Dll and Python) so that China has better research until 1500 ad or Renaissance.
Replies:
I do not want to start a debate but I would kindly disagree. I realize that China was ahead in many aspects but the Arabs made many important contributions in the field of Mathematics and Science. The reasons the Arabs are not acknowledged is because they build on what other civilization had done so people just like to say that they "preserved" knowledge but that is not true because even the Chinese techs like Papermaking and Gunpowder were enhanced by the Arabs before reaching Europe.
And although I am not adept at Indian history i remember that some guy in India discovered and laid the laws of gravity 1000 years before Newton and Im pretty sure India was almost as advanced as China.
Point Taken
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I was the one who suggested the idea of an Examination Hall.
While there may not be a Wikipedia page for one or even a proper name for one, the idea draws from the fact that pretty much every regional capital in Chinese antiquity had at least a designated area where the important Imperial Examinations needed to become a scholar/bureaucrat took place. It draws on the highly bureaucratic nature of Chinese society. They most definitely had buildings for a Ministry of Agricultural Affairs or Department of Trade or what not in ancient times (Long before European style bureaucracy, I might add).
The name I came up with, Examination Hall is supposed the reflect on that.
I don't see why making it a Library replacement is so inaccurate, while these places where the examinations were being held didn't necessarily foster creative ingenuity, they did inspire and foster a culture of intellectualism. But if it's that troublesome, a Courthouse replacement might be good too.
While there may not be a Wikipedia page for one or even a proper name for one, the idea draws from the fact that pretty much every regional capital in Chinese antiquity had at least a designated area where the important Imperial Examinations needed to become a scholar/bureaucrat took place. It draws on the highly bureaucratic nature of Chinese society. They most definitely had buildings for a Ministry of Agricultural Affairs or Department of Trade or what not in ancient times (Long before European style bureaucracy, I might add).
The name I came up with, Examination Hall is supposed the reflect on that.
I don't see why making it a Library replacement is so inaccurate, while these places where the examinations were being held didn't necessarily foster creative ingenuity, they did inspire and foster a culture of intellectualism. But if it's that troublesome, a Courthouse replacement might be good too.
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