Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

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I said multiple times already that I consider that to be a very compelling idea, however, this needs to be implemented very carefully to be pulled off believably. Currently RFC kind of excludes the barbarian invasions in exchange for guaranteed spawns, so we'd have to increase barbarian pressure instead. Portugal and Netherlands need to be included into this mechanism somehow (dependent on Spain and Germany?), and what about Germany itself? It doesn't depend directly on Roman precursors, but is a successor to France, so what happens if France doesn't exist? What happens with America if they don't exist? Etc ...

By the way, I've made the following changes to Mongolia:
- all Keshiks (starting units and those spawned by the UP) start with UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY_LEMMING
- the AI gets 4 extra Keshiks on spawn
- the UP now also spawns a defender longbow for the AI

That usually was sufficient to make them take over China in the majority of my test games. They were also more capable at holding on to their horde conquests, I saw a Golden Horde Russia a few times for example.
 
Lord no, the UHV should have some bearing on a civ's historical goals, Zheng He's expedition was highly anomalous and focused more on expanding the reach of the Chinese state than discovering new lands as such. I'd hate for this mod to give any sort of legitimacy to that '1422' twuntery. Perhaps the Ming-era goal should be to have a number of vassals or to gain control of tropical goods beyond China's likely military range.

800px-Zheng_He%27s_ship_compared_to_Columbus%27s.jpg


If they didn't have the will, you would certainly not doubt they had the capacity and then some.
The ship on the bottom is a European galleon. The ship on the top is a Ming junk.

:cool:

I actually don't believe in the stuff written in 1421 either.
But if Ming were to get in, an exploration goal would be very fun in my opinion.
FYI, there's been several civilizations with some very ahistorical goals already so
(old Japan with the North American Shadowrun cities goal and old Maya with their survive till 1740+ goal and don't forget Germany with their control practically ALL of Europe win condition) yeah... Now about the vassals suggestion, that in itself is a bit of a volatile goal since the AIs seem to be incredibly temperamental in vassalizing themselves to a player. They only vassalize typically when:

A) They're too small.
B) They're at war with someone else.
C) They're losing a war against you badly, but at that point, I'd just outright conquer a nation.

I think that might work better as a UP.
Kind of like Viceroyalty except slightly better
(+5 Stability per vassal instead of +4?).

As for the Mongols, I don't think the AI should just get the extra Keshiks.
I do definitely think the player should get extra Keshiks as well.
Also, if Keshiks had "ignore city defenses", you'd NEVER upgrade them to Currassiers. :lol:
(Which might not be such a bad idea as it originally sounds like considering the Mongols don't really tech that great in the first place...)
 
Can you spawn the Mongols with some of their great generals, particularly Subutai?
I intend 1.9 to include a history module that does exactly that.

Speaking of vassals, what do you think of resetting a civ's stability to zero when it vassalizes? Because usually it's very annoying to try to capitulate someone because even if you finally get them to accept it they'll collapse soon afterwards.

Could there be any drawback to something like that?
 
I spy the Portuguese UU model in that picture...

Anyways, have these changes been committed yet? I'd like to try them out.
 
As long as it's only AI that gets its stability reset I think it's fine. The only possible difficulty I could see is that a player that capitulates an enemy no longer has as strong an impetus to liberate some of their cities back to them but that seems like a small price to pay.
 
I spy the Portuguese UU model in that picture...

Anyways, have these changes been committed yet? I'd like to try them out.
Now they are :D

As long as it's only AI that gets its stability reset I think it's fine. The only possible difficulty I could see is that a player that capitulates an enemy no longer has as strong an impetus to liberate some of their cities back to them but that seems like a small price to pay.
That's no problem because you can't capitulate to the AI anyway ;) And liberating their core cities should still be necessary because I guess they'd be unstable very soon if you continue to hold them.
 
Yeah, about the vassals.

In my previous game, Arabia respawned from underneath a powerful & advanced Ottoman Empire. They were heavily outgunned and I kept gifting them Tactical Nukes, Cavalries & Infantries so I wouldn't get the stability & diplomatic hits and just about ten turns in, they collapsed since so much of Arabia wasn't flipped properly. Even worse, the Egyptians consolidated former Arabian territory AND got access to my Nukes.

I think a respawned vassal stability reset would be a good idea.
 
Leoreth,
I am one of the biggest fans of preplaced cities but even I think what you did in India is not only overdid but also quite inaccurate. I'll start out with some inaccuracies:

-The city of Kolachi is west of the Indus river (which is also better for gameplay) and the more appropriate name for the medieval city would be Daibul.

-Cochin is too far north (even though the cityname manager doesn't recognize that) and would be better represented one tile south.

Here is what I don't like:

-First off, all those cities not only make the game deterministic but also look and feel quite ahistorical and atheistically unappealing. So I suggest you get rid of some of them:

1) Goa: Outside of the fact that Goa was the capital of Potuguese holdings in India, i could not find any history of the city so it is extremely ahistorical to preplace, it is something like preplacing New York before the colonization. Goa isnt that much of an important city to begin with, i did'nt see any major history on wiki and it isn't exactly one of the most important cities right now either. The only time it makes sense to see Goa around is if the Portuguese found it.

2) Karachi, because it wasnt an important city and more importantly unlike Delhi or Calcutta it is not important to have Karachi neither in gameplay terms nor historically. I would much rather the AI having a choice of founding cities there especially since more important cities like Multan will not get built by preplaced Karachi.

3) Peshawar; again it is not important to have Peshawar. I would like if the AI founds it once in a while but it shouldnt be preplaced because there are as important/ more important cities in the vicinity like Lahore and Kabul which will never be founded if Peshawar is preplaced.

4) Hydrabad should be left for the Mughals to found because if im playing the Mughals I want the option to found cities. Its not like the Mughals never founded Hydrabad; actually it was present in a significant majority of my games. What you can do is make Hyderabad more likely to be founded (settler map).

5)Calcutta is a special city as i think it definitely needs to be in the game (due to it being the most important city in colonial India and one of the most important in post colonial one) but i think it should not be be preplaced but rather always founded by the British. The way you can do this is if any other city is already founded before the conquers events, you can check the tiles surrounding Calcutta and raze that city and then a British settler should spawn accompanied by a cultural border.


I like that you have cities in Southern India; i once thought of recommending this idea (but forgot). I would like to expand on this by recommending more historical city names and one more city in Southern India:

I like that you have represented the two South India cities as it represents the various Kingdoms of Southern India (Chola and Vijyanagara) but after doing some research the cities you have chosen had little to none value in Medieval India so what i suggest is that you change the names to cities that were important in that time period and when the Europeans conquer the region you can change their names to their current form.

Madras: should be changed to Kanchipuram which was a major center of religous and political power in Ancient India and is located in the same "square" as Madras. Once the French, Mughals, British (or any other European or Islamic Powers) conquer the city it can be name changed to Madras.

Cochin: should be placed one south for better gameplay and geography as it is too north right now.

Bangalore: I am surprised that you have included all major Indian cities except this one. Bengalore is the largest city in southern India and an important colonial city of Southern India. The medieval city in its location would be Vijayanagara which was an extremely important political and economical center of Medieval India.

Heres what a final map of southern India would look like if you implemented my suggestions:
Civ4ScreenShot0033.JPG
The only problem is Goa which would not be able to be founded if the Portuguese land; i myself would be fine with that since Goa isnt that important (comparitively) and the fact that Cochin served as the capital of Portuguese India for quite a while. But if you insist, you can move Vijayanagara one tile north (in blue) and spawn the Portuguese where the green is.

BTW, Heres a better settler map (with minor terrain changes) for the Mughals:
Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG

Its surprising how much you can learn from wiki in a matter of half an hour. :crazyeye: But don't hold me to it if it turns out to be wrong :lol:
 
I do love atheistically appealing cities. Are we removing Hinduism from them?
Was going to comment on that as well :D

Leoreth,
I am one of the biggest fans of preplaced cities but even I think what you did in India is not only overdid but also quite inaccurate. I'll start out with some inaccuracies:
First off, I know the reasons for most of your remarks, but there are other things to consider as well as pure historical accuracy in 600 AD.

-The city of Kolachi is west of the Indus river (which is also better for gameplay) and the more appropriate name for the medieval city would be Daibul.
Couldn't find any information on a relation between Daibul and Karachi (or any source that even implies Daibul actually existed). Kolachi on the other hand is credited to exist at least since the early colonial period. But that's one of the cities can remove again because I'm fairly certain the Mughals will found it anyway.

-Cochin is too far north (even though the cityname manager doesn't recognize that) and would be better represented one tile south.
Yeah, saw that as well when I took another look at an Indian map (I used the CNM to find the city but it seems Rhye was off there). We don't need the CNM to name preplaced cities anyway so I'll move the jungle there 1N 1E and place Cochin 1S.

1) Goa: Outside of the fact that Goa was the capital of Potuguese holdings in India, i could not find any history of the city so it is extremely ahistorical to preplace, it is something like preplacing New York before the colonization. Goa isnt that much of an important city to begin with, i did'nt see any major history on wiki and it isn't exactly one of the most important cities right now either. The only time it makes sense to see Goa around is if the Portuguese found it.
But the Portuguese can't found it if there's Mughal, Indian or independent culture everywhere. We can't have the cake and eat it, too: for the conqueror mechanic to work the cities to be acquired/captured have to be already there.

2) Karachi, because it wasnt an important city and more importantly unlike Delhi or Calcutta it is not important to have Karachi neither in gameplay terms nor historically. I would much rather the AI having a choice of founding cities there especially since more important cities like Multan will not get built by preplaced Karachi.
Karachi is easily the most important city in modern Pakistan, as well as one of the largest cities in the world. Multan is rather unremarkable today, plus it's too far north and would only collide with other cities. But as I already said, it's no problem to remove Kolachi again so you have a choice.

3) Peshawar; again it is not important to have Peshawar. I would like if the AI founds it once in a while but it shouldnt be preplaced because there are as important/ more important cities in the vicinity like Lahore and Kabul which will never be founded if Peshawar is preplaced.
Peshawar is roughly as important as Lahore and Kabul, quite a good city spot, and a reasonable city for northern Pakistan (I'd like to have at least two cities in the game that are still important in modern Pakistan). Afghanistan is already represented by Qandahar, on the other hand, if I leave Peshawar out, Mughals won't found any city on the northern Indus, which is also bad for game balance because Delhi then becomes a monster.

4) Hydrabad should be left for the Mughals to found because if im playing the Mughals I want the option to found cities. Its not like the Mughals never founded Hydrabad; actually it was present in a significant majority of my games. What you can do is make Hyderabad more likely to be founded (settler map).
Early tests resulted in Hyderabad not being built due to the others cities that are near to it now. And you make it sound very easy, you can't solve everything by settler maps. The AI takes other factors, like closeness to other cities, into account as well, and forcing it to found cities very close to each other has nasty side effects in other regions. I can free the area and give it some additional tries again, but if that doesn't play out, the city must stay. But I already planned to rename it to Bhagyanagar to increase the aesthetic factor ;)

5)Calcutta is a special city as i think it definitely needs to be in the game (due to it being the most important city in colonial India and one of the most important in post colonial one) but i think it should not be be preplaced but rather always founded by the British. The way you can do this is if any other city is already founded before the conquers events, you can check the tiles surrounding Calcutta and raze that city and then a British settler should spawn accompanied by a cultural border.
Same rationale as with Goa, the city must be there so the conquerors can take it. Plus, it's even worse than with Goa because the AI never founds that city due to the many jungle tiles there.

And I also want to have the conqueror code to be as elegant as possible, without thousand extra cases "if it's Calcutta, clean the area and found it, but if it's Goa, only found if there's enough space, but attack Jakarta in any case ..." Also, such an arbitrary razing will be ... unpleasant if you play India.

I like that you have represented the two South India cities as it represents the various Kingdoms of Southern India (Chola and Vijyanagara) but after doing some research the cities you have chosen had little to none value in Medieval India so what i suggest is that you change the names to cities that were important in that time period and when the Europeans conquer the region you can change their names to their current form.
Okay, that would be no problem.

Madras: should be changed to Kanchipuram which was a major center of religous and political power in Ancient India and is located in the same "square" as Madras. Once the French, Mughals, British (or any other European or Islamic Powers) conquer the city it can be name changed to Madras.
That's possible, Madras was a placeholder name anyway, the things I read seemed to be conflicting on the pre-colonial name (the Tamils seem to have called it Madarasapatinam, but Chennai was apparently around by then as well).

Cochin: should be placed one south for better gameplay and geography as it is too north right now.
Yes.

Bangalore: I am surprised that you have included all major Indian cities except this one. Bengalore is the largest city in southern India and an important colonial city of Southern India. The medieval city in its location would be Vijayanagara which was an extremely important political and economical center of Medieval India.
Conflicts with Goa, but maybe I remove it and the Portuguese have to be happy to get Cochin.
 
Leoreth, please add coded Marsh to Singapore that it will only gone by middle of colonial Era..
If anybody want to settle there, they'll go to 1 tile NW which is Malacca..

And please make ocean between Java and Australia..
 
I agree that Zhenghe's expedition was impressive, but as a Chinese myself, unfortunately I have to say it is hard to design other UHVs for the Ming dynasty from a global view. The Ming dynasty was not as powerful and glorious as its predecessors, and could hardly present the Chinese civ post the Mongolian invasion as a whole.

So I think its grave digger, the Manchu state (Qing dynasty), could be more eligible for a new civ. The Manchus played a similar role as the Mughals. They used to be extremely strong military power, conquered or vassalized the whole China, the whole Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, Xinjiang, part of Siberia, Korea, and Taiwan, which formed the modern shape of China. They built a giant and prosperous empire, but then became isolated willingly, finally fell behind and clasped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

I think the introduce of the Manchus could make this game much more interesting. They do not have to be playable or have UU, UB etc., just like the Mughals. (of course, I think making it playable would be very interesting, if If conditions allow). Indeed no Manchuria state excites anymore now, but don't forget, the Japanese created a puppet Manchurian state (Manchukuo) during WWII. In game, if the Manchu-Chinese empire get unstable, the China proper could respawn and leave them the Manchuria. Also they could respawn in Manchuria on their own.

Finally, I noticed we are troubled with the Mongolian invasion campaign on China. Don't forget, one main reason that the Mongolians successfully conquered China was China were divided into several rival states at that time, fighting each other, and the northern one was just built by the Manchus (Jin dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dynasty_(1115–1234) ). If we set a spawn for the Manchu Jin dynasty in northern China before the Mongolian invasion, the Mongolian conquest will be much easier as in history (the southern state, Song dynasty, allied the Mongolians at first and attacked the Jin from the south simultaneously).

I wanted to say is that, the Manchu civ did play a import role in eastern Asia history. Even be unplayable, I think adding it would solve many problems and give the game more fun.
 
@Qiu
This sounds quite nice, I would probably go in that direction too
 
For leader-heads, I think the current Yongle and other east Asian face would be good. Anyway we also have the terrible Cixi:lol:

For city names... hmmmm for the reason that now only a very small number of elder people in remote regions can speak the Manchurian language, I think the Chinese-written city names could also work. In fact the Manchus quickly abandoned their culture and language and adopted the Chinese one. Manchurian naming are Shengjing for Shenyang (the capital before capturing Beijing), Jingshi for Beijing (the later capital), Xinjing for Changchun as the capital of Manchukuo. Other Manchurian city names, like Harbin, Hailar, Qiqihaer, Haishenwai, are all directly translated from the Manchurian language, so I think there is no problem.
 
Leoreth, please add coded Marsh to Singapore that it will only gone by middle of colonial Era..
If anybody want to settle there, they'll go to 1 tile NW which is Malacca..

And please make ocean between Java and Australia..

I agree with this 100%. Singapore was not as much of a city as much as a fishing village (a hamlet in civ terms). It would be more interesting to have it settled by the British or the Indonesians later in the game, when the Marsh can disappear. Seeing Malacca would be better, as it was a very important city, at the heart of the Malacca Sultanate which eventually was vassalized and collapsed by the Dutch. Malacca spices anyone? ;)

I agree that Zhenghe's expedition was impressive, but as a Chinese myself, unfortunately I have to say it is hard to design other UHVs for the Ming dynasty from a global view. The Ming dynasty was not as powerful and glorious as its predecessors, and could hardly present the Chinese civ post the Mongolian invasion as a whole.

So I think its grave digger, the Manchu state (Qing dynasty), could be more eligible for a new civ. The Manchus played a similar role as the Mughals. They used to be extremely strong military power, conquered or vassalized the whole China, the whole Mongolia, Manchuria, Tibet, Xinjiang, part of Siberia, Korea, and Taiwan, which formed the modern shape of China. They built a giant and prosperous empire, but then became isolated willingly, finally fell behind and clasped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

I think the introduce of the Manchus could make this game much more interesting. They do not have to be playable or have UU, UB etc., just like the Mughals. (of course, I think making it playable would be very interesting, if If conditions allow). Indeed no Manchuria state excites anymore now, but don't forget, the Japanese created a puppet Manchurian state (Manchukuo) during WWII. In game, if the Manchu-Chinese empire get unstable, the China proper could respawn and leave them the Manchuria. Also they could respawn in Manchuria on their own.

Finally, I noticed we are troubled with the Mongolian invasion campaign on China. Don't forget, one main reason that the Mongolians successfully conquered China was China were divided into two rival states at that time, fighting each other, and the northern one was just built by the Manchus (Jin dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dynasty_(1115–1234) ). If we set a spawn for the Manchu Jin dynasty in northern China before the Mongolian invasion, the Mongolian conquest will be much easier as in history (the southern state, Song dynasty, allied the Mongolians at first and attacked the Jin from the south simultaneously).

I wanted to say is that, the Manchu civ did play a import role in eastern Asia history. Even be unplayable, I think adding it would solve many problems and give the game more fun.

Again I agree with this, just like the Mughals they were a different ethnic group that came to occupy China (Manchu vs. Han Chinese), all previous dynasties of China were Han Chinese in leadership (except under Yuan Dynasty -- Mongolian Rule started by Kublai Khan). And then in the early 20th century you can have a Wuchang rebellion which historically is on Oct 10 1911 (yes today is the 100th year anniversary of the overthrow of the Manchu rule), the Han Chinese rise up and overthrow the Manchu foreigners. So it really is acceptable to add them as a state spawning in 1644 or frankly earlier when they terrorized Korea.

By far the LH for the Manchus should be Emperor Kang Xi (known for being the most famous Emperor in all Chinese history)
 
By far the LH for the Manchus should be Emperor Kang Xi (known for being the most famous Emperor in all Chinese history)

Of course, Yongle is an emperor of Ming dynasty. I mean the leader face. And agreed that Kangxi is the most prominent leader of Qing. After 1840s the leader could change to Cixi, presenting the fall of the empire.

For religion, the Manchu people believed in Shamanism before entering China. The royal family adopted Confuciusm as national ideology, but believed in Tibetan Buddhism themselves at the spiritual level.

And for the ancient Manchurian dynasty of Jin, their leader should be Taizu of Jin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Taizu_of_Jin A nomadic Asian leader face would serve in my opinion. And the capital was also Beijing (Zhongdu).
 
Leoreth, please add coded Marsh to Singapore that it will only gone by middle of colonial Era..
If anybody want to settle there, they'll go to 1 tile NW which is Malacca..

And please make ocean between Java and Australia..
Well, either we see Tumasik/Singapura early on or never in the game. When Malacca is already settled for example, it's highly unlikely that someone will raze it and then found Singapore, much less the British of all people.

On the Manchu, you make a compelling argument, but for the time being, I won't include another extra civ (doing Thailand was easy because they could use almost everything from the Khmer). Finishing 1.8 doesn't mean that I'll never return to Asia, though.
 
And for the ancient Manchurian dynasty of Jin, their leader should be Taizu of Jin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Taizu_of_Jin A nomadic Asian leader face would serve in my opinion. And the capital was also Beijing (Zhongdu).

I forgot about that. Yes adding the Manchu and first representing them as the Jurchen (Jin Dynsasty), would be excellent as it would split up China making it weaker, and easier for the Mongols to conquer China, rather than facing a united and unhistorical China in the 13th century! Damn I wish we would have though of this earlier it would have been a lot more fun to play with the Manchus...

@Leoreth

Why not just change Malacca to Singapore's tile later in the game. Basically you make Malacca (if its built) into a village improvement and you build a pop 3 city on Singapore's tile, and remove the marsh. Frankly both cities were extremely important in the region, but at two separate time periods.
 
Because a city randomly switching to another plot doesn't make sense, especially if you're playing as the one owning the city.
 
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