Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

Status
Not open for further replies.
Both the Yuan and the Qing were non-Han but they're seen very differently.
Only because the Qing were much more thorough and clever in re-writing history to cover up their inhuman atrocities against the Han people. And unlike the Yuan there is a lack of third party evidence which made this cover up easier.

But even that is hardly relevant next to the abject failure of its economic, cultural, and foreign policies, even when compared to the Yuan. The effect of those are being felt even today.

And like I said before, the Tang was not ethnic Han either. Li Shimin's grandmother, mother, and wife are all Xianbei. And yet Tang has become synonymous with Chinese.
 
Only because the Qing were much more thorough and clever in re-writing history to cover up their inhuman atrocities against the Han people. And unlike the Yuan there is a lack of third party evidence which made this cover up easier.
Yeah sure.

But even that is hardly relevant next to the abject failure of its economic, cultural, and foreign policies, even when compared to the Yuan. The effect of those are being felt even today.
Some leaders are prominent despite their catastrophic performance. I mean, you could make a similar case for Mao.

And like I said before, the Tang was not ethnic Han either. Li Shimin's grandmother, mother, and wife are all Xianbei. And yet Tang has become synonymous with Chinese.
Exactly! What matters is how their rule was perceived.
 
Yeah sure.
If you could read Chinese it would be quite obvious. Any Chinese person with a proper high school education knows this. Or if you like to bother with Google Translate:

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/甲申国难

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/屠蜀#.E6.B8.85.E5.86.9B.E5.B1.A0.E8.9C.80

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/清初六大弊政

The residual sentiment perceiving the reigns of Kangxi and Qianlong as some sort of "golden age" is nothing but a relic of old Qing propaganda and brainwashing. The only thing "golden" about those period compared to the rest of the Qing dynasty is that there was no mass slaughtering of civilians or invasion by (other) foreign powers.

What I understand less is why Western popular media still like to sometimes propagate this "Qing golden age" BS. I guess it's always fun to laugh at the misfortunes of others (schadenfreude)?
 
I don't know if you detected sarcasm in the quoted section but there was none. I was agreeing with you.
 
I did agree with you right from the start, I was just reinforcing your point by stating there is more to a leader's perception by his country than his/her ethnicity, and cited the perceived differences of Yuan and Qing as an example.
 
I did agree with you right from the start, I was just reinforcing your point by stating there is more to a leader's perception by his country than his/her ethnicity, and cited the perceived differences of Yuan and Qing as an example.
Yeah, but there are people who perceive the Qing as being either more Chinese or more successful than the Yuan (and hence, Qianlong deserving to be a Chinese LH more than Kublai does). As absurd as that notion is, it's been put forward in this thread so I assumed that's what you were referring to.

I need to better distinguish different opinions from different people in a thread and always go with the safe assumption that Leoreth is wise and all-knowing.
 
Yeah, I only realized in hindsight that there's been a discussion on Qianlong etc., maybe that's why the example popped into my head but I really didn't want to make a point in that context.

Anyways, I think it's fair to say that the Yuan are being regarded as more of a foreign rule than the Qing are, which of course doesn't say anything about their respective success in ruling China.

Actually, the effectiveness of rulers and their role in national mythology (for lack of a better word that escapes me right now?) isn't all that strongly correlated. Competent rulers are often forgotten (like Joseph II of Austria), while bad to average rulers are often emphasized (like Elizabeth I).

Identification with well known historical figures plays a large role in the selection of ingame LHs, however, so it's not that bad if some of these leaders are in.
 
Is it just me or is the download not currently working? Chrome says it can not find the https.
 
No, you're right, the https doesn't belong into the link. It's fixed now.

Welcome to the forum by the way :)
 
Thanks! I played RFC and DoC years ago, but never posted. I'm just now getting back into it since Civ 5 has gotten boring and there's no mod of this caliber out for it in the forseeable future as far as I know.
 
Identification with well known historical figures plays a large role in the selection of ingame LHs, however, so it's not that bad if some of these leaders are in.
Indeed, and what's more, Leaderheads are usually meant to embody entire eras of a nation's history. For example, in DoC, Isabella leads Spain throughout the entire Reconquista, before Philip II takes over to represent the reckless overseas expansion and subsequent decline of the Spanish Empire.

If Russia gets shafted with a simply atrocious leader like Czar Nicholas II, and the HRE likewise with Frederick Barbarossa, I'd make the case that a Qing-dynasty LH could represent the decline of China and its exploitation by foreign powers.

Alternatively, if there are plans to include a Jurchen/Manchu civ, make Qianlong their Renaissance-era LH. The Qing occupation of China lasted roughly as long as the Ming dynasty, and nobody in this thread disputes its impact, I think. It should be represented somehow.

On a final note, I think I once saw Hitler in the Civilopedia, who is pretty much the worst possible LH in existence this side of Pol Pot. Mind you, I never saw him in-game, but if he can in fact appear, then we'd have set a strong precedent for terrible incompetent mass-murderer LHs — that is, apart from Stalin and Mao.
 
Doesn't Leoreth live in Germany? I think that would mean it's illegal for him to include Hitler in the game, then again I'm not familiar with Germany's de-Nazification legislation.
 
If Russia gets shafted with a simply atrocious leader like Czar Nicholas II, and the HRE likewise with Frederick Barbarossa
I'd use Alexander II and Frederick II instead, if there were graphics for them.

Doesn't Leoreth live in Germany? I think that would mean it's illegal for him to include Hitler in the game, then again I'm not familiar with Germany's de-Nazification legislation.
Haha no. First of all, only Nazi symbolism matters, for example the swastika (although the Hitler LH features them). Secondly, it's not illegal to use them, it would just lead to the game being indexed and barred from sale. Possession of such a game would be okay for instance. Thirdly, as long as you're using the swastika for an accurate portrayal of the timeframe, it's okay anyway. Which I guess sort of applies here, not that it matters because of the second point. Ironically, censoring swastikas from period movies is more of an American thing.
 
Not really. Roughly speaking, if you're not promoting an ideology, and it is used in a historical context and for artistic, educational or scientific purposes, the display of the swastika and such is not illegal. (§86a Abs. 3 StGB, if anyone cares)
 
I do agree a Qing-dynasty leader would be nice and represent that era well. Though perhaps Cixi is a little too awful a leader, even compared with Nicholas II.
 
Not really. Roughly speaking, if you're not promoting an ideology, and it is used in a historical context and for artistic, educational or scientific purposes, the display of the swastika and such is not illegal. (§86a Abs. 3 StGB, if anyone cares)
And the definition of "artistic" is apparently quite broad. Remember Obersalzberg on Switch Reloaded and the swastika-patterned carpet? Not to mention the swastika-key for their typewriter, even though it wasn't shown :lol:
 
And the definition of "artistic" is apparently quite broad. Remember Obersalzberg on Switch Reloaded and the swastika-patterned carpet? Not to mention the swastika-key for their typewriter, even though it wasn't shown :lol:

Unfortunately, Nazi-themed cafes and shops are somewhat popular in Asia.
There was one in Indonesia that got a lot of flak over the past week.
http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/40568
Before that, there was one in India too that got a lot of attention.
Don't even look into the world of Nazi cosplay or worse yet, Nazi-themed weddings (it really is a thing).
It's something you don't want to see.

IRAWADDY.org said:
It is the second time this month that Nazi images have provoked controversy in Southeast Asia. Last week, Thailand’s premier university apologized for displaying a billboard that showed Adolf Hitler alongside Superman and other superheroes, saying it was painted by ignorant students who didn’t realize Hitler’s image would offend anyone.
 
And the definition of "artistic" is apparently quite broad. Remember Obersalzberg on Switch Reloaded and the swastika-patterned carpet? Not to mention the swastika-key for their typewriter, even though it wasn't shown :lol:
:lol: Not to mention that Hitler is perhaps the most-featured man on German state television these days. Watching this stuff you could get the impression that all of German history consisted of nothing but Hitler, Hitler, Hitler.

On a more topical note, I have a suggestion for a new leaderhead. Here's Novator's Philip II Augustus, who could replace Charlemagne. There's also a nice model for Harun ar-Rashid in there; at the moment, I can't remember whether it's already used by DoC.

Edit: I just read about the existence of »Nazi cosplay«.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom