Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

Unfortunately, Nazi-themed cafes and shops are somewhat popular in Asia.
There was one in Indonesia that got a lot of flak over the past week.
http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/40568
Before that, there was one in India too that got a lot of attention.
Don't even look into the world of Nazi cosplay or worse yet, Nazi-themed weddings (it really is a thing).
It's something you don't want to see.

Yes, and you won't see this in Germany for obvious reasons.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Yes, and you won't see this in Germany for obvious reasons.

Except on NPD meetings...

 

[AtlantaMarty]

but if he can in fact appear, then we'd have set a strong precedent for terrible incompetent mass-murderer LHs — that is, apart from Stalin and Mao.

Why are Stalin and Mao included but Hitler Not? Mao killed 78+ million, Stalin killed 31+ million, Hitler killed 11.5+ million.

This is in no way an endorsement of any of the leaders, nor a complaint about the mod (which I love), they are all evil scumbags, just curious why Stalin and Mao are included but not Hitler.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Hitler is included, as is Mussolini. Check Civilopedia.

The problem is that the AIs never run Totalitarianism (because it sucks) so you never get to see these LHs in practice.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Why are Stalin and Mao included but Hitler Not? Mao killed 78+ million, Stalin killed 31+ million, Hitler killed 11.5+ million.

This is in no way an endorsement of any of the leaders, nor a complaint about the mod (which I love), they are all evil scumbags, just curious why Stalin and Mao are included but not Hitler.

I swear this gets brought up all the time on any Civ forum.
This is like the Godwin's Law of Civilization.

I can't explain it well for Stalin, but with Mao,
he's actually well loved among large sections of the populace and mostly those from the countryside.
Believe it or not, he brought some real equality to China where there was few before (late Qing/RoC) in many areas, first of foremost being women's rights actually.
Mao eliminated polygamy, arranged marriages, child brides & enabled women to work as well as being able to choose their own spouses.
The general nationalist mindset is that under Mao, China was able to kick out all foreigners from meddling in China's internal affairs and stand up as a sovereign nation;
something very important in Chinese nationalism gained from the context of the Century of Humiliation.
Also "killed" is the wrong way to put it. The imagery that the statement suggests is that Mao iced all those people in cold blood which couldn't be further from the truth.
Was it still atrocious that all those people died under his leadership because of short-sighted planning and policies that were doomed to fail? No doubt.

He wasn't really a good statesman when it came to domestic affairs, but he knew how to have China stand its ground, among other reasons, which is why people love him.

EDIT: Can no longer find the relevant link.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Stalin turned a backwater agrar country into THE most powerful state in the history of mankind and liberated Europe from Fascism. You're welcome.

 

[dmitrytrue]

Stalin killed 31+ million

Not even close to this number.
Most of Stalin's repressions were political. Those people who potentially could bring a chaos in political structure of newborn soviet state.
For example, father of my grandmother was one of such a victims, he was shot. Also as her mother was in different jails of Siberia more than 20 years.
That is why I could hate Stalin, talk about how terrible he was, about his repressions and "billions" of victims of his regime. But I don't. What the sense of it?
Don't touch Stalin, it is only our buisness. We can hate him if we wish, but you not.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

THE most powerful state in the history of mankind

That would be the British Empire under Victoria, I think.

Unless you're talking about absolute power instead of relative power. In that case it would be the U.S. today.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Hitler is included, as is Mussolini. Check Civilopedia.

The problem is that the AIs never run Totalitarianism (because it sucks) so you never get to see these LHs in practice.

I didn't know that there was Mussolini in. Was he added in 1.11?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I didn't know that there was Mussolini in. Was he added in 1.11?

My bad. Mussolini is not in the latest (SVN 542) version. Hitler is (in the Civilopedia).

I do remember Mussolini being there a couple of versions ago though. He had a LH which was a modified version of Augustus. He could have been removed to make room for the new LHs of the decolonization civs. The new LHs are very good btw - San Martin is always trying to undress me with his eyes. It makes up for the absence of the old Catherine somewhat.

 

[Atlantic Pacf.]

Stalin turned a backwater agrar country into THE most powerful state in the history of mankind and liberated Europe from Fascism. You're welcome.

Dang, I was going to say that. Yes, Stalin turned Russia/USSR from the least of the Great Powers, dominated by an agrarian economy, into an industrialized superpower, complete with nukes and spacecraft. Granted, it was at a great cost, but Stalin-era Russia was not like Qing-era China. (That would be the stagnation era, I presume.)

Leoreth, the new diplomusic is amazing. Where do you get it from? (I especially like Peron's.)

 

[Tigranes]

Don't touch Stalin, it is only our buisness. We can hate him if we wish, but you not.

I loled. Imagine poor Cambodians asking not to touch Pol Pot. They alone can hate him.

One has to read Russian forums to appreciate the depth of confusion among masses. There is no such a thing as "our" in the Court of History. Every part -- is a part of the Whole. Execute Vavilov -- and the World looses chance to make a breakthrough in Genetics, make Mandelstam die -- and world looses one of its most significant poets of 20th century, shoot Tukhachevsky in the back of the head - and who knows how many people in Europe would be saved if Germans loosed the war in 1941-1942...

But, of course Stalin would not make it to Time magazine cover as a Person of Century:

In a separate issue on December 31, 1999, Time recognized Albert Einstein as the Person of the Century. It was debated whether Adolf Hitler, German Chancellor and Führer responsible for World War II and The Holocaust, should have been made Person of the Century for his impact on the twentieth century. The argument was based on Time's explicit criterion that the person chosen should have the greatest impact on this century, for better or worse.

Imagine we would not have Einstein. Time would need to place Hitler on her last 20th century cover.

 

[dmitrytrue]

@Tigranes

Spoiler :

I loled. Imagine poor Cambodians asking not to touch Pol Pot. They alone can hate him.

One has to read Russian forums to appreciate the depth of confusion among masses. There is no such a thing as "our" in the Court of History. Every part -- is a part of the Whole. Execute Vavilov -- and the World looses chance to make a breakthrough in Genetics, make Mandelstam die -- and world looses one of its most significant poets of 20th century, shoot Tukhachevsky in the back of the head - and who knows how many people in Europe would be saved if Germans loosed the war in 1941-1942...

But, of course Stalin would not make it to Time magazine cover as a Person of Century:



Imagine we would not have Einstein. Time would need to place Hitler on her last 20th century cover.

You can laugh as long as you wish, or cry, or do whatever you wan to do, I don't care. But if someone should laugh, it is me. As Armenian you cannot understand, wherefrom this "our" comes. It is simply not given to you.
And what is really confusing in masses of minor countries, that is they talk too much about this abstract "Whole", perhaps because they have no anything own, and will never have.
I've seen enough people like you on Russian forums, to understand what is going on right now in your tiny head. ;D

 

[BenZL43]

what.. I don't even know that in Indonesia exists cafes like that lol. That's really something .___.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

what.. I don't even know that in Indonesia exists cafes like that lol. That's really something .___.

Spoiler :

Malaysia has a bit of a Neo-Nazi problem as well.
http://www.vice.com/read/the-malaysian-nazis-fighting-for-a-pure-race

 

[Tigranes]

@Tigranes

in your tiny head. ;D

Spoiler :

Поосторожнее на поворотах, порутчик

You don't sound like someone laughing, Mitya. You sound like someone bitter and confused.

You are confused about "ours" and "minor nations". Was your "don't-you-dare-to-touch" Dzhugashvili "our" (Soviet), "your"(Russian), or "theirs" (minor nation's) ? Define "our". Was Soviet Revolution our, your or their (another minor but very proud nation).

And you bitter. When you try to measure size of my head in lieu of intelligent argument -- dude, you sure sound bitter. I hope mods won't give you minor warning for this, otherwise you might really loose your cool

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Uuuuuuh this is gonna be interesting.
My money's on Tigranes.

 

[dmitrytrue]

Spoiler :

Поосторожнее на поворотах, порутчик

Spoiler :

Я не переношу, когда люди начинают благоговейно говорить о чем-то "Всеобщем", вероятно, чувствуя себя эстетствующими интеллигентами в этот момент, при этом употребляя такие слова, как "массы". Будто они не понимают, что любое "всеобщее" подразумевает непосредственную причастность к экзистенции этой бесформенной массы, в движении которой они сами не играют ни малейшей роли. И все это происходит на фоне вымывания из сознания базовых принципов, которые и являлись двигателем развития человечества во всех сферах бытия. Достаточно сравнить свершения 20 века и конец 20 - начало 21. Стагнация во всем, не так ли? Я мог бы достаточно долго рассуждать на эту тему, но это неподходящая площадка...
Да и на английском я не готов вести подобные дискуссии. В любом случае, "whole", "Всеобщее" для меня - красная тряпка. Так что не нужно удивляться моему резкому ответу.

You are confused about "ours" and "minor nations".

No, I'm not confused, Russia (Russians if you wish) always had leading role in any unification (Empire and Union) other people were like younger brothers, but still Russians too, because, as you know in USSR was no any discrimination based on nationality. I think in Empire too.
But now everyone is apart, and if I speak "Russian" now, I mean only Russian. When I speak "minor countries" I mean minor countries.
If they are really apart now. What can I do? Besides, their media doing everything to sow discord among brothers in past. What can I do? It is given... Everything is already happened.
read my text under spoiler, Tigranes, it will give answers on all your questions I think. Maybe.

 

[blizzrd]

All the broken record stuff makes my avatar choice seem oddly appropriate.

With the release of 1.11, it is time to update your signature now though.

 

[Leoreth]

Moderator Action: I consider the Stalin discussion to be offtopic and nothing good will come of it, especially with the people involved. This will stop right here.

The problem is that the AIs never run Totalitarianism (because it sucks) so you never get to see these LHs in practice.

I plan to address that too with the upcoming civic changes. It almost looks overpowered now.

I can't explain it well for Stalin, but with Mao,
he's actually well loved among large sections of the populace and mostly those from the countryside.
Believe it or not, he brought some real equality to China where there was few before (late Qing/RoC) in many areas, first of foremost being women's rights actually.
Mao eliminated polygamy, arranged marriages, child brides & enabled women to work as well as being able to choose their own spouses.
The general nationalist mindset is that under Mao, China was able to kick out all foreigners from meddling in China's internal affairs and stand up as a sovereign nation;
something very important in Chinese nationalism gained from the context of the Century of Humiliation.
Also "killed" is the wrong way to put it. The imagery that the statement suggests is that Mao iced all those people in cold blood which couldn't be further from the truth.
Was it still atrocious that all those people died under his leadership because of short-sighted planning and policies that were doomed to fail? No doubt.

He wasn't really a good statesman when it came to domestic affairs, but he knew how to have China stand its ground, among other reasons, which is why people love him.

The problem is, I wonder if people would say the same about Hitler if he hadn't wound up losing a world war. And that's troubling me.

The new LHs are very good btw - San Martin is always trying to undress me with his eyes. It makes up for the absence of the old Catherine somewhat.

The LH fanservice transcends sexual orientations

He reminds me too much of Cem Özdemir to feel entirely comfortable with that though.

Spoiler :

Leoreth, the new diplomusic is amazing. Where do you get it from? (I especially like Peron's.)

It's from cybrxkhan! He fortunately made a Latin American music package a while ago.

With the release of 1.11, it is time to update your signature now though.

Yeah, I did that yesterday.