until Prussia arrives? Please do tell when the Habsburg abandoned Catholicism
Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
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until Prussia arrives? Please do tell when the Habsburg abandoned Catholicism
SanePerson
Warlord
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The Habsburgs never abandoned Catholicism; however, The Turk thinks that the HRE should turn into Prussia, not Austria.
AOS9001
Slightly over 9000.
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The HRE was officially Catholic until Napoleon took it out, though Protestantism was given equal status at the Peace of Westphalia, if I remember correctly. Prussia should be Protestant, HRE should be mixed, and I think Austria should stay Catholic. A compromise, if you will.
And for Charles V Europe, I think it'd be awesome. You'd get about 50 years of Spanish-German domination, and if you're good, you'd get more. Maybe it could be an event that happens around 1520 or so (like a permanent alliance, just not permanent).
Of course, this may be too deterministic. After all, it was a short period. Important, but short.
civ-addicted
King
The period itself was imoprtant. The Reformation, the first Siege of Vienna and a massive enlargement of Austria (Bohemia, Croatia and parts of Hungary). But the so called spanish domination just happened to be at the same time and isn't that important to include (especially not via scripted event). I mean, two emperors not speaking german resp. a german dialect is more of a fun fact (don't take it bad)
The HRE wasn't officaly catholic, but Austria was. Since 1555 (Peace of Augsburg) the sovereign of every single state said whether their subjects have to be catholic or protestant, and the emperor wasn't allowed to interfere. So officially, Catholicism and Protestantism were treated equally (expect for the Thirty-years war, but that's a whole of another story). Having both Catholicism and Protestantism in Frankfurt would be fair.
If you still ask yourself about HRE -> Prussia or Austria, here's what i think: The HRE ended in 1806 after Franz II lost the control of all the small states in nowadays western germany, and the German Empire was born in 1871 when Prussia (kinda) controlled southern Germany. I think it would be best if the HRE changes his name to Austria if they lose Frankfurt, and Prussia changes its name to German Empire if they control Frankfurt. In this case Frankfurt (or if it doesn't exist, any city in western germany) stands for the small states in Germany.
And btw, there is no real connection between the emperor of the HRE and the emperor of the prussian-dominated German Empire. That's why the official title was "deutscher Kaiser" (german Emperor) and not "Kaiser von Deutschland" (Emperor of Germany), because the second title would have implied that they control all of germany at that time, which would have included nowadays Austria as well. Wilhem I wanted to be called that way, but it would have pissed off every other nation in europe.
The HRE wasn't officaly catholic, but Austria was. Since 1555 (Peace of Augsburg) the sovereign of every single state said whether their subjects have to be catholic or protestant, and the emperor wasn't allowed to interfere. So officially, Catholicism and Protestantism were treated equally (expect for the Thirty-years war, but that's a whole of another story). Having both Catholicism and Protestantism in Frankfurt would be fair.
If you still ask yourself about HRE -> Prussia or Austria, here's what i think: The HRE ended in 1806 after Franz II lost the control of all the small states in nowadays western germany, and the German Empire was born in 1871 when Prussia (kinda) controlled southern Germany. I think it would be best if the HRE changes his name to Austria if they lose Frankfurt, and Prussia changes its name to German Empire if they control Frankfurt. In this case Frankfurt (or if it doesn't exist, any city in western germany) stands for the small states in Germany.
And btw, there is no real connection between the emperor of the HRE and the emperor of the prussian-dominated German Empire. That's why the official title was "deutscher Kaiser" (german Emperor) and not "Kaiser von Deutschland" (Emperor of Germany), because the second title would have implied that they control all of germany at that time, which would have included nowadays Austria as well. Wilhem I wanted to be called that way, but it would have pissed off every other nation in europe.
This issue should have been settled somewhere around posting #2055
Guys.... Prussia is supposed to conquer all of the old HRE lands, therefore sucking up their cities with Protestantism -_____-, isn't that obvious. And no the Habsburg never gave up Catholicism, I'm just saying that Protestantism should still flow through the HRE. "Whose Realm, Their Religion" (or w/e the saying is)
But ya, you don't need to represent the ACTUAL union of Charles V empire, but in general the HRE and Spain should get a friendship bonus. Therefore this would hopefully put the cap on a too expansive France (who tends to get to the New World before Spain or anyone else)
But ya, you don't need to represent the ACTUAL union of Charles V empire, but in general the HRE and Spain should get a friendship bonus. Therefore this would hopefully put the cap on a too expansive France (who tends to get to the New World before Spain or anyone else)
Hmmm...Spain and the HRE had de facto quite good relations. But if you want to bring this into the game, there should also be a friendship bonus between the HRE and England, as the Saxons and Angles origin in nothern Germany, and France should have friendship minus points to England (100 years war), HRE and Prussia/Germany ("hereditary enemy"). The Ottomans should have minus points with HRE and Russia, Italy should have minus points to HRE and France...blablabla.
It would be too much to include, and although Karl V. ruled the Spanish and the Holy-roman empire, it wasn't THAT big deal to have it in such a large-scaled game. Karl V. couldn't even speak German...
And then what about the Danelag, the Viking rule in Great Britain?
Or the English territories in France during the 100 years war?
In my opinion, it is just not that important to have this in a mod which lasts from 600ad up to now.
I would rather suggest to find an appropriate way to represent the Moorish rule in Spain
Ok, obviously you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. England already hates France most of the time. Turkey ALREADY hates the HRE and especially Russia most of the time, BUT Spain and the HRE/Austria USUALLY are at odds with each other, something which I think needs to change! They are usually not friends, therefore they should get a friendship boost, this would ALSO help in making sure France's power dosen't spread unchecked, hopefully weakening France a bit at the beginning, again hopefully leading to a Spanish New World, among other benefits.
I would rather suggest to find an appropriate way to represent the Moorish rule in Spain
Yes I agree with that, the Moors should be represented, and that should be a priority (somewhere up there
)I'm pretty sure Southern Spain would still flip, you would need to change their spawn zone, which I have done before.
About the Renconquista/Moorish rule thing:
Idea 1:
The Spanish spawn at Madrid (black tile) with 4 Longbowmen, 2 Swordsmen, 1 Worker and 3 Settlers (on monarch level).
I'm suggesting to have an independant city "Qurtuba" on the green tile (actually the Sevilla-plot) which the Spanish ALWAYS settle in my games. So the city would be there anyway, if there was a pre-spotted city or not.
This independant city would represent the Moorish, with an appropriate garrison to prevent being conquered in 1 or 2 turns. To help the Spanish conquer that city, I would give them 3 Swordsmen and 1 Axeman from the beginning.
As long as the Spanish haven't conquered Qurtuba, named Sevilla for them, the Civ should be called "Kingdom of Castile-Leon" and Madrid should be named "Toledo". After conquering Sevilla, Toledo should change it's name automatically to Madrid and the Civ should be called Kingdom of Spain.
Idea 2:
What about making the Reconquista a UHV?
Something like this: "Reconquista: Make Catholicism state religion and control the Iberian Peninsula and Melilla in XYad!" (Maybe the spawning-date of Portugal?)
For this, I would have the Spanish spawn at Toledo (same thing with Toledo/Madrid as in idea 1) and putting 1 settler and 1 Longbowman at Santander and Zaragoza (so they don't HAVE TO settle exactly this cities, but are likely to do so).
I would go with 3 Moorish cities on the Iberian Peninsula: Olissipo (Lisbon), Qurtuba (actually Cordoba, but de facto Sevilla) and Balancia (Valencia)
and one city in North Africa: Mric (Melilla).
The Spanish should get a bigger starting army to achieve their UHV.
And also I would change the UP of Spain. The naval-bonus and exploration-thingy is already taken by Portugal, and it's better to let this be the Portuguese UP, because Portugal was much more important for the exploration as Spain was (ya, ya, I know, Columbus, blabla...but most of the explorations were Portuguese ones, just think of Magellan and the expeditions around Africa under the rule of Joao II. And also, Columbus and Amerigo Vespucchi (America was named after him) were Italians (born in Genoa and Florence). And further, America de facto was discovered much earlier by the Vikings (if you can call this "to discover", as people lived there all the time
).
Anyhow, what about changing Spain's UP to something about the faith? Religion, Catholicism is even today a very important part in the life of the Spanish. Maybe someting like "Power of the Faith: Catholicism is state religion. Cities are founded with Catholicism. Cities with Catholicism receive 1,2...? extra shields."
To boost their economy for being able to manage the new UHP (and the others as well)
I would really love having idea 2 included in the mod. As the Reconquista is THAT event in the Spanish history...The Reconquista led to the strong (catholic) faith in Spain, which led to the Spanish Inquisition. And Spain would never had put such efforts in colonizing Southern America, if they didn't wanted to proselytize the native population! This was one of the 2 main reasons (the other was gold and silver, obviously...).
If there would not have been a Reconquista, respectively a need for the Reconquista, the whole Spanish history never would had happened, and this would have changed the whole European history: there would not have been a colonization in America the way it was, which would probably never had led to the great European Empires (maybe the US wouldn't have been founded...), the world wars...
Also, the Moorish rule in Spain helped Charles Martell to reach for the Frankish crown and his son Pippin and his grandson Charlemagne to be kings of the Frankish Empire, falling apart in France and the Holy-roman Empire...
If my ideas are crap, well, ... but the Moorish and the reconquista really DO HAVE TO be included in some way...it's such an important event for European history, just as important as the rise of a small village in the hills near Tiber river...
P.S.: I'm very sorry about the poor diction and grammar, but it is really late and I'm dead beat
Idea 1:
The Spanish spawn at Madrid (black tile) with 4 Longbowmen, 2 Swordsmen, 1 Worker and 3 Settlers (on monarch level).
I'm suggesting to have an independant city "Qurtuba" on the green tile (actually the Sevilla-plot) which the Spanish ALWAYS settle in my games. So the city would be there anyway, if there was a pre-spotted city or not.
This independant city would represent the Moorish, with an appropriate garrison to prevent being conquered in 1 or 2 turns. To help the Spanish conquer that city, I would give them 3 Swordsmen and 1 Axeman from the beginning.
As long as the Spanish haven't conquered Qurtuba, named Sevilla for them, the Civ should be called "Kingdom of Castile-Leon" and Madrid should be named "Toledo". After conquering Sevilla, Toledo should change it's name automatically to Madrid and the Civ should be called Kingdom of Spain.
Idea 2:
What about making the Reconquista a UHV?
Something like this: "Reconquista: Make Catholicism state religion and control the Iberian Peninsula and Melilla in XYad!" (Maybe the spawning-date of Portugal?)
For this, I would have the Spanish spawn at Toledo (same thing with Toledo/Madrid as in idea 1) and putting 1 settler and 1 Longbowman at Santander and Zaragoza (so they don't HAVE TO settle exactly this cities, but are likely to do so).
I would go with 3 Moorish cities on the Iberian Peninsula: Olissipo (Lisbon), Qurtuba (actually Cordoba, but de facto Sevilla) and Balancia (Valencia)
and one city in North Africa: Mric (Melilla).
The Spanish should get a bigger starting army to achieve their UHV.
And also I would change the UP of Spain. The naval-bonus and exploration-thingy is already taken by Portugal, and it's better to let this be the Portuguese UP, because Portugal was much more important for the exploration as Spain was (ya, ya, I know, Columbus, blabla...but most of the explorations were Portuguese ones, just think of Magellan and the expeditions around Africa under the rule of Joao II. And also, Columbus and Amerigo Vespucchi (America was named after him) were Italians (born in Genoa and Florence). And further, America de facto was discovered much earlier by the Vikings (if you can call this "to discover", as people lived there all the time
).Anyhow, what about changing Spain's UP to something about the faith? Religion, Catholicism is even today a very important part in the life of the Spanish. Maybe someting like "Power of the Faith: Catholicism is state religion. Cities are founded with Catholicism. Cities with Catholicism receive 1,2...? extra shields."
To boost their economy for being able to manage the new UHP (and the others as well)
I would really love having idea 2 included in the mod. As the Reconquista is THAT event in the Spanish history...The Reconquista led to the strong (catholic) faith in Spain, which led to the Spanish Inquisition. And Spain would never had put such efforts in colonizing Southern America, if they didn't wanted to proselytize the native population! This was one of the 2 main reasons (the other was gold and silver, obviously...).
If there would not have been a Reconquista, respectively a need for the Reconquista, the whole Spanish history never would had happened, and this would have changed the whole European history: there would not have been a colonization in America the way it was, which would probably never had led to the great European Empires (maybe the US wouldn't have been founded...), the world wars...
Also, the Moorish rule in Spain helped Charles Martell to reach for the Frankish crown and his son Pippin and his grandson Charlemagne to be kings of the Frankish Empire, falling apart in France and the Holy-roman Empire...
If my ideas are crap, well, ... but the Moorish and the reconquista really DO HAVE TO be included in some way...it's such an important event for European history, just as important as the rise of a small village in the hills near Tiber river...
P.S.: I'm very sorry about the poor diction and grammar, but it is really late and I'm dead beat
Attachments
This is really a great mod, while Rhye and Fall is the greatest mod, this is the best modmod. I have not play Civ 4 for months, but your mod give it new life.
Recently I am try Greece, but their conquest UHV seems pretty hard to achieve! How are you suppose to make so much conquest and still build enough wonders?
Recently I am try Greece, but their conquest UHV seems pretty hard to achieve! How are you suppose to make so much conquest and still build enough wonders?
I like your ideas, but why not have the Spanish spawn in Santiago? I don't understand why you need them to spawn in Madrid/Toledo? It would make more sense just to have the spawn in the North, and move southward. In fact, I would suggest moving the Spanish spawn to the year 1035 AD, to represent the formation of the Kingdom of Castile. Also having the Portuguese spawn later, as a representation of the formation of their Kingdom in 1139 AD would be good.
Oh and Lisbon or "al-ʾIbūna" should be one tile north.
As for Valencia or Balansiya, I would move it one tile north, and move the silver to the hill which it's currently on.
Also in general you should give Christianity to all the three settlements as well, and have it be removed after the Re-Conquista (sort of like a very limited Arab UP).
Oh and Lisbon or "al-ʾIbūna" should be one tile north.
As for Valencia or Balansiya, I would move it one tile north, and move the silver to the hill which it's currently on.
Also in general you should give Christianity to all the three settlements as well, and have it be removed after the Re-Conquista (sort of like a very limited Arab UP).
Lokki242
Emperor
Just one thing. If you make Canada as a colonial civ, please make it playable. I have ideas already.
Spawn: 1860
UP: The Power of Peacekeeping; -50% War weariness (Don't know how useful that actually is.)
UU: Mountie, replaces cavalry. Starts with Woodsman II and Mobility I.(Cavalry Recolour)
UHV 1. Control Modern Canada in 1970 AD 2. Be at Peace with every Nation in 1970 AD
3. Have 3 Defensive Pacts in 2010 AD
Spawn: 1860
UP: The Power of Peacekeeping; -50% War weariness (Don't know how useful that actually is.)
UU: Mountie, replaces cavalry. Starts with Woodsman II and Mobility I.(Cavalry Recolour)
UHV 1. Control Modern Canada in 1970 AD 2. Be at Peace with every Nation in 1970 AD
3. Have 3 Defensive Pacts in 2010 AD
Thanks!
Well, the Greek UHV definitely became a lot harder compared to RFC here, but it's doable. I'm not the optimal player but managed to do it on the second try (it included some risky attacks and poor city defenses though), but others have posted even more elegant victories.
My tactic was to try to destroy Egypt and Babylonia with my starting phalanxes (I don't know if it worked on both) and to settle Ancyra on the marble in Anatolia to produce units there. Athens, Diospolis and Babylon can then share the wonder-building while still building some units.
Oh, and the Andalusia suggestion looks rather good actually. I'm letting it go through my head
TowerWizard
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 277
A few questions.
1. Is this thread the only source of information regarding this modmod? If so, it is hard to use it.
2. Is there a guide for the stability system, updated for this modmod (and not the original Rhyes and Fall manual)?
3. While I understand that you should not be able to avoid the anarchy period of switching civics during a Golden Age (because of the stability system), I hate to loose Golden Age turns. Could it not be possible that, while in anarchy, those turns does not affect the golden age turns (ie if you had 4 Golden age turns when you go into anarchy, you still have 4 golden age turns when it ends)?
1. Is this thread the only source of information regarding this modmod? If so, it is hard to use it.
2. Is there a guide for the stability system, updated for this modmod (and not the original Rhyes and Fall manual)?
3. While I understand that you should not be able to avoid the anarchy period of switching civics during a Golden Age (because of the stability system), I hate to loose Golden Age turns. Could it not be possible that, while in anarchy, those turns does not affect the golden age turns (ie if you had 4 Golden age turns when you go into anarchy, you still have 4 golden age turns when it ends)?
Basically yes, I tried to compile the most relevant information in the first post (what changes are made etc.). If you have any other question, simply ask here, it doesn't matter if it's already been aswered.
There's a .doc file which comes with the modmod that explains the effects of the new civics (the only significant change made to the stability system). Look into the mod folder.
That's a good idea actually, and from how I see it not very difficult to implement.
I think the real problem is that anarchy for civics takes WAYYY too long. I would therefore suggest to have civs start off with historically accurate civics they would have had at the time, and allow the player to change one or two, rather than having to do a sweeping change, like how SoI does it essentially
Also, I just realized, what the point of having the Dutch spawn in 1500's? Because wasen't it until towards the end of the century that the Dutch began to revolt against the Spanish king Phillip II?
rogue131
Byzantine Historian
I've been playing this mod for sometime now, many different civs. This, coupled with the old school RFC, original release. I must say there is something historically that is overlooked. Greece should be reborn in the 19th century (to simulate the Greek War for indepedence). Also, Ethiopia should rise and remain in power for sometime. I'm just saying, some states don't appear as they should. Also, maybe WWI and WWII should be scripted events, as well as the subseqeunt wars throughout the Middle Ages, Age of Discovery, 15-late 19th century. I like to play these versions because they slightly mimic history, but it would be much harder and a great deal more fun of history was even more similiar. Could you imagine having a full colony in N.A. and then getting into a 7-years war and losing it all (or, maybe you win and gain more! . Just a thought.
Other than that, this mod awesome. The civics are a bit confusing to me and could use some help.
. Just a thought.Other than that, this mod awesome. The civics are a bit confusing to me and could use some help.
TowerWizard
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 277
Leoreth: Thank you. I found the guide to the new civics and that was helpful. However, I think there must be more that unfluences this than just the civic combos? Is the calculation different for each civ? As it is, I cannot really understand why I am at -45 in the civics cathegory. Also, I have never understood why you get a permanent setback every time you change civics. It should be slowly reset to zero. It is not logical that changes made in the ancient era still negatively affects the stability of the industrial era.
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