Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Sir Tornado]

I just finished a game with France at Monarch (did the UHV in 1860), a few notes:

- Italy is overpowered right now. Due to their UP as well as due to the fact that there already are quite a few wonders (including one which specifically helps GP production) in 600 AD start at Rome, Italy spawns GP after GP and becomes way too powerful. While Italy producing GPs is historically accurate, in the game they are using that to bulb their way through the tech tree too fast. I was always playing catch up with them till I founded UN and then enforced Universal Suffrage that caused them to collapse. (this was after I completed my UHV).

- Oil industry is way too overpowered. This may be a bug because in my game whenever I spread Oil industry in one of my cities, the city showed 8 oil per actual oil resource I had. This meant I gained 40 gold (!!!) per oil resource, and this was before any improvements kicked in. After I spread oil industry in 3-4 cities, I was comfortably able to run 100% research and still rake in 300-400 surplus gold every turn. I know oil industry plays a big role in modern world but this is a bit too much

On a different note, if you can add extra civs, might I suggest separating Phoenicians and Catharge? Although it is true that Catharge was a colony of Phoenicia (founded by exiled Phoenicians), it was completely independent and had no links (apart from trade and culturally) to the Phoenician "core" area. This situation is analogous with what exists between England/UK and USA right now.

Any, a great mod. Kudos to you Leoreth

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks

A couple of things you note here are already addressed in the next version:

1. Italy will be nerfed somewhat, but you have a point on the Pantheon, it doesn't make much sense to be present there in 600 AD anyway. Maybe a further decrease in the GP spawn rate might be due though.
2. That wasn't intended, currently Oil Industry accidentally also produces oil which is also factored into its revenue again. Will be fixed.
3. You're basically right, but the Phoenicians would be kinda pointless then, wouldn't they?

Btw, if you want to access the fixes I've made before the next version is released, look into the first post of this thread for instructions.

 

[smile286]

Great modmod!

New version will be released soon, right?

(I don't want to download SVN ;-)

Thanks.

 

[Leoreth]

There are currently some issues I'd like to solve until the next release. Don't expect it before the end of February.

 

[The Turk]

I just want to say that quite a few civilizations are not loading properly. I am currently updating through the SVN, and some civ's just crash for me when I try to load them up

 

[Leoreth]

Have you tried to revert from revision 50 to 49?

 

[rogue131]

Is it possible to avoid stability penalty from transition to Democracy, I had Republic and Representation(Capitalism/Free Market/and Viceroyalty were other civics if thats important), and when I switched from Representation to Parliamentarism I still get the instability. This was with Britian as well, as if it would make a difference...

Anyway, On the subject of Prussia/Austrian UHV's I got some that I would like to propose some:
Austria/HRE
(spawn at now Germany/HRE's time/spot)
UP
-Power of Hapsburg Rulers:
Diplomatic bonus before(insert Industrial Tech here)
UHV's
-Control the Largest Empire in Europe in 1500's(a turn or two before Prussian Spawn)(had largest Empire completly in Europe)
-Make Wien the largest city in 1300's(Ahistorical, although it might be historical, not sure)
-Found Protestantism(didn't historically, but I fear it would be founded before Prussian spawn normally)
Prussia/Germany
(spawns in the 1500's at Berlin)
UP
-Current UP for Germany
OR
-Power of Army("Nations own an army while the Prussian Army owns a state" quote type thing)
Militarial units cost less Mantinence after discovery of Nationalism
UHV's
-Build/Control Brandenburg Gate, Pentagon, Versailles by/in 1900's(Ahistorcal; built Brandenburg Gate, Pentagon is Militarial, and Versailles was built in Paris which was captured a couple of times by Germany; so not too ahistorical)
-Control Germany(including Wien)(Austro-Prussian War), France(Franco-Prussian War), Denmark(maybe just simply Scandanavia)(Seven-Weeks War), and Poland(Prussia controlled much of Poland, before Napoleon's conquest of Europe) by late 1800's
-Take by force or settling(this just sounds more interesting than control)the Cameroons, German East Africa, and Laos/Rabaul(a city in East Asian Islands)(they had a colonial empire before WWI)

Just a couple of cents, not worth much nowadays...

Respecting Leoreth's wishes to stop the discussion, I just want to add a last comment; I agree with the above. Looks pretty good. I like the idea of colonization, since the Germans did have a set of colonies, not as grand as France or England, but they had possessions. Good Leoreth, let me know if I can help at all.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, sorry, I didn't meant to stop you from discussing it; you can of course discuss it as long as you like. I just wanted to express that I can't add anything else than what I've already said to this discussion until I've tested my ideas out, so you wouldn't get it wrong if I didn't say anything about it anymore.

 

[jammerculture]

Leoreth, you guys need to put warning labels on your mods. I have been without a computer for over a month now, and I'm pretty sure it would have been easier to quit hard drugs rather then not play!!!


I'm freaking out!!!!!




That is all

 

[AOS9001]

mega image

What is this I don't even...

 

[Leoreth]

Leoreth, you guys need to put warning labels on your mods. I have been without a computer for over a month now, and I'm pretty sure it would have been easier to quit hard drugs rather then not play!!!


I'm freaking out!!!!!




That is all

"The EU commissioner of health warns - Civ4 endangers your free time"

 

[rogue131]

I'm pretty sure it would have been easier to quit hard drugs rather then not play!!!

That is probably the best quote I've seen on here for a while, it might even turn into a signature should you allow it.

 

[Sandmonster1989]

Leoreth is right about any time frame of only 4 years is almost completely unworth of mention. I mean the Confederacy can be classified as a small rebel uprizing due to poor stability and can just be a small semi-random event that changes the American's civics from Slavery/Serfdom to something else.

 

[penco]

I have been scoping out this mod for a bit now, but I am reluctant to play it now. It is just WAY too Eurocentric.

It seems like every European Civ player (of which there are many) seems entirely devoted to making sure his/her personal ethnic group is represented in-game more than creating a balanced experience.

Is it really fair to squabble over the technical nuances of the relationship between Austria and medieval Germanic states when there is just 1 civ for all of "Arabia"?

How about the fact that Qinxi starts in an uncontested Chinese mainland when in reality it was full of warring states for centuries?

But no one suggests that a new civ is made for, say, the Zhou dynasty of China.


TLDR:

Get over your nationality! It's a game, not a history book. Europe is already overcrowded and nearly unplayable. Adding more European civs (Sweden, Austria, Italy, etc) is going to ruin it even more.

Way too much attention has been given to balancing Europe, and the rest of the world has been neglected. Can we focus on balancing the rest of the world instead for a bit?

-----


Also, please remove Taoism entirely, since it is not really a "world religion" and really should not have been in Civ4 in the first place. Really,there should just be a Neo-Confucianism religion that comes with an early-medieval tech that is central to China. Having Taoism and Confucianism is overkill considering neither of them are of any historical significance outside China. Neo-Confucianism combines Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism. Currently, there is too much UHV pressure on China to found 2 religions, and when those religions are founded elsewhere as they inevitably are in-game, it creates a very silly historical situation (Roman Confucians, for instance).

For that matter, Hinduism really should just be replaced with the generic Pantheon civic. The word "Hindu" really just means "Indian". It's a nationality as much or moreso than a religion. It would be like giving a whole religion in-game to Greek polytheism. Buddhism, on the other hand, is universal in scope and should be considered a religion. So, by the same historical reasoning that Judaism was removed, please remove Hinduism.

With the religion spots freed up, consider adding Shia Islam. It would add a great deal of interest to the conflicts in the Middle-East between Arabs and Turks.


TL;DR:

-Remove Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism
-Add Neo-Confucianism
-Add Shia Islam and rename old Islam to Suni

 

[penco]

Another suggestion, along with the Civ Rebirth mechanic:

Have Persia respawn as Turks, which frees up a civ spot. They inhabit very similar areas in-game and are historically the same ethnic group. There's not much of a reason not to consolidate them.



Also, is there ever plans to implement Korea? It could really liven up East Asia which is slow going all the way until the Renaissance. It would also help to deflect some of the barb pressure off China so that giving China a basically guaranteed Great Wall is not necessary. There is so much space in that part of the world anyway, compared to Europe and the middle-east. China can expand southward and into Tibet, and Korea can expand on the peninsula and northward. It would make diplomacy a lot more interesting in the early game and make China a lot more viable.

 

[civ-addicted]

Have Persia respawn as Turks, which frees up a civ spot. They inhabit very similar areas in-game and are historically the same ethnic group. There's not much of a reason not to consolidate them.

That's just not true. I know a persian guy and he would pretty sure punch you in the face for claiming something. True story.
Persians are of indo-european decent, just like almost entire europe. Turks are, well, turks. Central asian folks like Kazakhs etc.

 

[penco]

Ok, you got me, but a large number of Aryan-descended Persians do live in modern Turkey.

 

[The Turk]

That's just not true. I know a persian guy and he would pretty sure punch you in the face for claiming something. True story.

------------

But other than that, I like the idea of adding Neo-Confucianism, except for the fact that it really only began during the Tang Dynasty, so in reality would need to appear only in the 600 AD start. That's why in general, Confucianism should replace the ethnic Taoism.
And yes there are plans to add in Korea, which Leoreth said he would include after finishing up Prussia and Byzantium.
And as much as I would like to see the addition of "Shi'ite Islam", we can't remove Hinduism! It's too vital for the Indians!

 

[Sir Tornado]

For that matter, Hinduism really should just be replaced with the generic Pantheon civic. The word "Hindu" really just means "Indian". It's a nationality as much or moreso than a religion. It would be like giving a whole religion in-game to Greek polytheism. Buddhism, on the other hand, is universal in scope and should be considered a religion. So, by the same historical reasoning that Judaism was removed, please remove Hinduism.

Um... not really. Hinduism is a distinct religion. I think majority of Indian muslims, christians, buddhists, sikhs and jains would have major beef with you if you suggested they are hindus...

edit: Can you add extra religions (ie more than 7 religions) to the game?

 

[penco]

*incoming text wall*


I studied religions of Asia pretty extensively as an undergrad, and Hindu"ism" is largely a political device created in the late 19th century and used in the 20th century mostly for nationalist purposes.

Hinduism is a giant umbrella category used to lump together a whole ton of various stories, pantheons, etc, many of which conflict directly. I don't mean that to denigrate them. The Ramayana and the Mahabharata are wonderful stories. But, within "Hinduism", you have several main trunks such as Shiva worship, Vishnu worship (which has tons of its own subcategories), philosophical absolutist "Brahmanism", and then just the local worship of deities. Many of these deities are specific to a small local region.

"Hindu" is just derived from the word "Hind" which people of India often use to refer to their geographical location. It is derived from the Indus River, which marks a major border. When the English began colonizing India, scholars and theologians created the term "Hindu Religion" to lump the beliefs of all the people in this region into one thing. It is a term created by outsiders.

When India pushed for independence in the 1940s, "Hinduism" was used as a rhetorical device by nationalist leaders (and still is to this day). They wanted to lump all of India, which is diverse ethnically, linguistically, and geographically, into one group for the purpose of political power. The fact that India didn't even decide to stay united should testify to the fact that Hinduism is a false invention. That's why we have Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nepal. They're all too different!

Hinduism is mainly considered a "religion" because of the World Religions movement in academia that was prevalent for the last century or so. However, if you are going to consider Hinduism a world religion, you would have to make Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology their own world religions as well.

Here's a good litmus test for what counts as a world religion: do members of the group actively seek to make converts?

For Hindus, no. Being Hindu (much like being Jewish) is so intertwined with the culture of India that it just doesn't make sense for a non-Indian to be a Hindu. You can't really extract the religion from the Indian civilization as a whole. You might be able to make a case for a very small number of minor sects like Hare Krishnas, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Contrast that with Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, and even Zoroastrianism. These groups were able to extract their religion in a substantive way from their local culture and make it applicable to people in other cultures. See: Buddhism spreads from India to very different places like Japan. English Christian missionaries in the Amazon. Islam takes root in India and Indonesia from its Arabian origins.

You can't say the same about Hinduism... or Greek or Norse mythology. Or, for that matter, Confucianism, Taoism, or Judaism* (to a slightly lesser extent).

------------------

As for Neo-Confucianism, no, it did not come until later, but I don't see why it needs to come into the game prior to 600 AD anyway. Any victory conditions dependent upon it coming earlier can just have their dates adjusted.