Ready_set_go
Too Late
Is there a reason why Turkey doesn't start with settlers?
How do I load a picture here, I'll show you I had none.
How do I load a picture here, I'll show you I had none.
Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
- Thread starter Leoreth
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Because Turkey flips SO MANY cities when it spawns, I guess. 
most of the Black Sea coast, Anatolia, northern Persia, and occasionally Syria.
most of the Black Sea coast, Anatolia, northern Persia, and occasionally Syria.Ready_set_go
Too Late
Give them atleast one, that way when I capture a city, and then somehow lose it, I don't die.
So I get them when cities flip? Or did Byzantines decide to keep 3 Settlers in a city? Again, if I knew how to post an image, I'd show you...
So I get them when cities flip? Or did Byzantines decide to keep 3 Settlers in a city? Again, if I knew how to post an image, I'd show you...
BTW, I noticed that there really aren't any special vassal names for civs vassalized to the Byzantines. Maybe Theme of X or Exarchate of X instead of Protectorate/Colony? I'm not sure of the exact Byzantine Greek names for different European countries, but that can't be that hard to find.
admtanaka
Warlord
Is Parliamentary-ism bugged? It seems to perpetually apply the "transition to democracy" penalty.
Ready_set_go
Too Late
It's supposed to. I think it's bugged right now in the fact that that instability never ceases.
Orka
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2010
- Messages
- 106
Buddhism's spread value is already quite low for Europe (the high XML value of 140 is lowered drastically in the SDK). The problem may be that Buddhism spawns earlier, so it has more time (chances) to spread to Europe before Catholicism/Islam even spawn. And it beats Hinduism and Zoroastrianism b/c those religions are relatively local. Perhaps Buddhism should auto-found later, spawning around 500BC in Hindu city?
The Islam spread problem is mostly due to the fact that cities never accept more than one religion naturally. So early religions like Buddism and Taoism simply shut it out. The Arabian UP is supposed to fix that, but unfortunately the AI is simply incapable of matching Arabia's RL conquests (into Pakistan and Central Asia). Maybe AI Arabia should get some extra units, kinda like Rome.
Linkman226
#anarchy
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2007
- Messages
- 2,493
Um what are the exact mechanics of the Roman UP? I just DoW'ed on Carthage (Phoenicia) only to find out I have no stack of Praets to murder them. What's up with that?
I think you should include Baghdad in the spawn area but you should balance that by reducing Arab settlers( as u said they waste their settlers anyways).
Also, the barbarian pressure in Tripolis and Benghazi razes the city. Is there a way that the barbarians can take those cities and not raze them. I didnt test out the svn but usually the arabs never make it to Tripolis; it is either Byzantine or razed.
Even though Anitoch is better than Alexandrette but it was only important in Antiquity and lost its importance in middle ages (apart from principality of Anitoch). And after Arab conquest Anitoch lost its importance as a trades and around 1000ad's it was finally destroyed by Malmuks.
I reccomend replacing it with either Damascus or Aleppo (also an important city under the Byzantine; was called Beroea by byzantines and was the 3 largest city in the empire)
Strong military for European states make life even harder for the Viking AI. Large armies also wouldn't seem as bad if they were units such as axemen or swordsmen, rather than horse archers.
I think if the AI controls the Arabs, they just need a bit more help initially. What about making all of Mesopotamia part of the Arab core area, give them only 1 initial settler, give the other 2 a couple turns after the spawn, also lower the city-settling probability to something really low for all other city sites within Arabia. What about making the Arab AI decide to fight a total war against the Byzantines for the first x number of turns?
To help the Arab AI in conquering North Africa, can Arab AIs get 3 free Camel Archers spawn just south of Libya? I also think that North Africa should be guarded with less spearman and Turkey be guarded with more spearmen.
I would much prefer to see Cataphracts as a knight predecessor than a strict knight counterpart. They've historically been in use for hundreds of years before knights have been. Giving Byzantines a 9 str version of heavy cavalry isn't that much of a disadvantage considering how ridiculously early the Byzantines would have access to such a powerful unit. I still think they should should also get some sort of attack bonus vs barbarian units or melee units given how successful they were at routing unorganized infantry through massed charges.
Idea 3 sounds interesting... This might open up for cataphracts to be used as a regional unit available only to Persians, Byzantines, Romans, Greeks, Turks and Arabs. (Cataphracts could then act as the main cavalry unit between chariots and knights. Horse archers could then be made to be available later, more powerful/useful and have the main role of softening up enemy units)
The Varangians idea itself sounds cool but not all that unique (Vikings already have Berserkers and Byzantines have the option of hiring mercenaries).
The problem is that Aleppo/Damascus are terrible city locations.
we can fix that by changing the resources up a bit for Syria and Mesopotamia to make them more productive/larger in 600 ad map. But Damascus (a time south-east of anitoch) isnt half bad.
As for the matter of settlers; i think they should only get one; instead their cities should be preplaced and flip to them (for Ai). These cities can include Damascus/Anitoch/Aleppo (watever u choose) and Baghad. So basically replace the two settlers with two flipped cities.
As for the matter of settlers; i think they should only get one; instead their cities should be preplaced and flip to them (for Ai). These cities can include Damascus/Anitoch/Aleppo (watever u choose) and Baghad. So basically replace the two settlers with two flipped cities.
Stelmack
Warlord
- Joined
- May 21, 2010
- Messages
- 111
Is there anyway that you could include that jungle change as part of this mod? I really don't see why not. Jungles are only useful when you want to stop natural contact as if it happend that way in real life, but I'm pretty sure the indies did get colonized...
Sorry, I don't completely understand the jungle situation. Do AIs not colonize jungle heavy areas because of the limitation on unit movement, or because of the fact it takes a long time to clear yet produces no shields?
What happens if we make jungle covered areas to be extremely high priority on settler maps? For instance, have Borneo be 9 on the Dutch settler map.
What happens if we make jungle covered areas to be extremely high priority on settler maps? For instance, have Borneo be 9 on the Dutch settler map.
jammerculture
Prince
I really think that the problem with Byzantine power is a result of two things. The first is that when Byzantine spawns they flip Babylonian, Carthaginian, Greek/Roman cities. At this time all of these civs are usually already teetering on the edge of collapse. When the Byzantines spawn, it is quite common for all of these civs to go to war with them. Because of the uberness of the cataphract, and the low stability, the most common scenario is a Byzantine Empire which is soon surrounded by independents who inhabit areas that the Greek maps entice them to conquer and they make short work of them.
Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, Byzantine pretty much guarantees the collapse of Babylon and Carthage. However, the abundance of loosely guarded cities at a time when barbarian incursions start to lessen, and without any competition, gives the Byzantines a free pass to conquer everything.
Some responses to your response:
-I did not take screenshots but they are easy to reproduce with the saves I uploaded
-Spawning with Legions is cool imo, I would not want to see that changed.
-I did not experience any crashes on either start
-In both starts Carthage and Babylon were alive and well. This should not be the case, however, the game has no real alternatives. It seems to be difficult to ensure that Rome takes out Carthage and Persia takes out Babylon. I look at it like this: if you are playing Rome or Persia then you are in control of their demise. If you are not and your one of the others, it would be unfair to force your collapse. Byzantine spawning in your laps will at least make sure they don't live long past then. I never had Catholicism so there was no bonus with Rome. when Rome held greece, the flip created an instant war. Even when they didn't you know how augustus can be when your on his doorstep!
-on barb flips: the two most common instances of this occurring are with Germany, who tend to get a stack of axemen and or HA, and Persia who often get a handful of extra chariots. In Persia's case it helps the game as I think they need a boost against Babylon, however with Germany, I know that I definitely use this to my advantage, and I'm sure the AI does as well.
-I think i like the second choice for Cataphract nerf, although i also really like the idea of creating a new unit class between chariots and knights, a light horseman of which the cataphract is an improved version.
-on Byzantine production: in my case, and the AI might be different, it is the surplus of food for whipping, that gave me an edge. So much Seafood. In general this points out a balancing issue. Byzantines spawn and core contains too many choice city locations. They start of with Constantinople, Athens/Sparta either flip or are easily conquered, Tyrus flips, Sinope is an obvious choice for a first settler. Rome and Egypt are just across the water, and conquering Babylon is easy. (bowmen vs cataphracts lol) So without even breaking a sweat, you can be holding four or five capitals and have a massive army of upgraded cataphracts before the medieval age begins!
-defensive Byzatium: perhaps their UP could be changed to something that gives cheap or even free fortifications? or free defensive promotions to units? or maybe their UB is changed to a modified castle? combining these changes could result in a UP that gives defensive bonuses and a UB that is a cheaper castle that gives more espionage points to retain the earlier advantage.
Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, Byzantine pretty much guarantees the collapse of Babylon and Carthage. However, the abundance of loosely guarded cities at a time when barbarian incursions start to lessen, and without any competition, gives the Byzantines a free pass to conquer everything.
Some responses to your response:
-I did not take screenshots but they are easy to reproduce with the saves I uploaded
-Spawning with Legions is cool imo, I would not want to see that changed.
-I did not experience any crashes on either start
-In both starts Carthage and Babylon were alive and well. This should not be the case, however, the game has no real alternatives. It seems to be difficult to ensure that Rome takes out Carthage and Persia takes out Babylon. I look at it like this: if you are playing Rome or Persia then you are in control of their demise. If you are not and your one of the others, it would be unfair to force your collapse. Byzantine spawning in your laps will at least make sure they don't live long past then. I never had Catholicism so there was no bonus with Rome. when Rome held greece, the flip created an instant war. Even when they didn't you know how augustus can be when your on his doorstep!
-on barb flips: the two most common instances of this occurring are with Germany, who tend to get a stack of axemen and or HA, and Persia who often get a handful of extra chariots. In Persia's case it helps the game as I think they need a boost against Babylon, however with Germany, I know that I definitely use this to my advantage, and I'm sure the AI does as well.
-I think i like the second choice for Cataphract nerf, although i also really like the idea of creating a new unit class between chariots and knights, a light horseman of which the cataphract is an improved version.
-on Byzantine production: in my case, and the AI might be different, it is the surplus of food for whipping, that gave me an edge. So much Seafood. In general this points out a balancing issue. Byzantines spawn and core contains too many choice city locations. They start of with Constantinople, Athens/Sparta either flip or are easily conquered, Tyrus flips, Sinope is an obvious choice for a first settler. Rome and Egypt are just across the water, and conquering Babylon is easy. (bowmen vs cataphracts lol) So without even breaking a sweat, you can be holding four or five capitals and have a massive army of upgraded cataphracts before the medieval age begins!
-defensive Byzatium: perhaps their UP could be changed to something that gives cheap or even free fortifications? or free defensive promotions to units? or maybe their UB is changed to a modified castle? combining these changes could result in a UP that gives defensive bonuses and a UB that is a cheaper castle that gives more espionage points to retain the earlier advantage.
Moshe Dayan
Da General
3000BC was fine, but nothing flipped to me in the 600AD start, even after the third turn. Also no python errors. Feels bad, man.
EDIT: Nevermind, they flipped on turn 11. Did I miss something?
Spoiler :
EDIT: Nevermind, they flipped on turn 11. Did I miss something?
jammerculture
Prince
Less settlers, more spawning camels in North Africa would be more historical and could guide the AI into acting more historical.
I like Leoreth's idea to spawn the settlers in Iraq as well.
I like this a lot. This might help the Greeks and Persians with their expanded historical expansion.
Maybe the new horse archer gets collateral damage against melee?
@linkman, the Roman UP does not work in the first few turns. However, if you DOW too early and don't get your troops, make peace and DOW again, you'll get them
No, you get those three spawn settlers together with your workers now. This is to prevent the AI from founding Sogut which annoyed many people for its ahistoricity and bad location.
Yeah, I haven't done that yet because that requires adding a new XML entry for the names and I wanted to save me the trouble. But if I do, I think I'll use Exarchate based names for most cases.
Is this with version 1.7?
I don't know exactly myself now. Near East is roughly the rectangle from the Levantine coast to as far as the stone tile in Mesopotamia. Balkans is roughly everything between the Adriatic and Black Sea coast and all of Europe south of it, so including Greece. I'll draw a map later.
Did you wait one turn? They don't show up immediately on DoW.
Yeah, definitely less settlers for balance. Don't know what to do about the barbs though. Personally I'd rather see the Arabs get there before the barbs can raze everything.
Interesting, I didn't know that (about Aleppo).
Bonus against barbarians is kinda difficult to do, I still haven't figured out how edead did it in SoI. But bonus against melee makes sense, especially because it doesn't help against Arabia's UU.
I think the problem is more that if the AI discards a spot because it thinks it unprofitable, even the highest settler map value can't get it to settle there. This especially true if everything is full of jungles but the AI lacks the tech to chop them.
I'd like to get the AI to settle there as well, but granting it a free jungle clearence seems to be too much in my eyes, so I'll try first if I can trick the AI into settling there now that the reason is located.
i like decodes idea on spawning camel archers in Libya. This way the Arabs have a much better chance of conquering North Africa. Maybe the same can be done with Persia. At the turn when Baghdad flips to Arabs we can Camel archers spawning there (or slightly east of it). To balance this out we can remove the camel archers spawning in Mecca (most if not all of them). Also I think one worker should spawn in Mecca, one in Baghdad and one in Cairo. The swordsmen should be removed and longbowmen reduced since Arabia already has defenders in Alexendira, Baghdad, Cairo, Jerusalem (cuz they spawn to them). There should be on longbowmen in Arabia and the other 2 spawn with the camel archers (in Libya, Persia) to defend the newly conquered cities. also we should remove on spearmen in Cairo and the archer in sanaa (just so arabia isnt too powerful. 
This solves all the Arabian problem
This solves all the Arabian problem
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