Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[azander12]

Because Islam in faction specific religion. Think about the other religions, they are either faction specific (Hinduism/Buddhism). Islam founded a civilization, it combined a people, hence the reason why Rhye had the religion spawn in Mekke.

BUT... how about we just have Islam spawn in Mecca in 632, thats also an option which I would be up for. Fair enough its three turns, but then how about just have Islam spread later, because as mentioned earlier Mecca and these other cities were already founded.

@Lord Ainsbirth

I like your idea, but I still think a Moorish civilization should take its place, rather than the Arabs getting far flung territory. Also I'm afraid it would unbalance the fabric of the game

A Carthage respawn would work well as the Moors I guess...

 

[The Turk]

A Carthage respawn would work well as the Moors I guess...

Well, I think just a minor Moorish civ would be good. Like the Byzantine previously, in the sense that you can't contact them at all, I think that would be a good idea for the Moors.


@Leoreth
Fine if its SUCH a hastle, then forget about changing the date, I'll live with it.

 

[Leoreth]

I never said it's a hassle, I said I don't care. You are the one turning this into a drama.

 

[The Turk]

I never said it's a hassle, I said I don't care. You are the one turning this into a drama.

wow umm...... ok...

Spoiler :

 

[spaceman98]

(I for one also want a Central Asian Civ but as ive seen nobody elso seems to be too fond of the idea)

I also want a Central Asian Civ. Preferably the Seljuks.

 

[J. pride]

I also want a Central Asian Civ. Preferably the Seljuks.

IN ORDER TO ACHEIVE THIS TWO OBSTACLES MUST BE OVERCOME

1) Central Asia and the Middle East as a whole was a region of short-lived empires that came and went so we need a way to represent this. If taken alone no one empire from Central Asia lived long enough to be represented in the game.(For this very purpose i think the Central Asian civ has to be more general that just the Suljuks; it can represent the Seljuks but it should not be limited to the seljuks).

2) A way would have be found so that the Mongol Invasion and Persian respawn would not be disturbed or distorted by the inclusion of the Civ.



If anybody has any ideas on this, i am all ears.

 

[AdrienIer]

IN ORDER TO ACHEIVE THIS TWO OBSTACLES MUST BE OVERCOME

1) Central Asia and the Middle East as a whole was a region of short-lived empires that came and went so we need a way to represent this. If taken alone no one empire from Central Asia lived long enough to be represented in the game.(For this very purpose i think the Central Asian civ has to be more general that just the Suljuks; it can represent the Seljuks but it should not be limited to the seljuks).

2) A way would have be found so that the Mongol Invasion and Persian respawn would not be disturbed or distorted by the inclusion of the Civ.



If anybody has any ideas on this, i am all ears.

I don't think a civ is a good idea. This area could be represented by indy cities at first (that's typically the kind of situation they are supposed to represent), a seljuk barbarian spawn (that could threaten the arabs and anatolia), a mongol spawn along with the eastern asian spawn (or keshiks coming from the east, having spawned on the silk road), then if the mongols have lost their hold on the region a timurid barb spawn. After the region is devastated, the safavid persians can arrive and take over the region, along with a mughal indian respawn in india.
That is probably the easiest way to represent the area more or less historically IMO. Anything else would probably mix things up with the later persian respawn (basically two civs on the exact same area).

 

[J. pride]

I dont think so. A Central Asian civ will represent the area way better than any barbarian spawn. For one, the Turkic empires of the region were not just mere barbarians; on the contrary they were responsible for many advances and magnificent cities that that were way better than that of the Europeans of the time.

Anything else would probably mix things up with the later persian respawn (basically two civs on the exact same area).

Actually it is not the same area, the Safavids or other later Persian dynasties never conquered Central Asia. Anyways the Central Asians would spawn in 1000 Ad (Seljuk invasion) while the Persian would form in 1500 ad. there is more of a territorial and cultural difference between the Central Asian Turks and the Persian than there is with the Byzantines and the Greek but they are still represented so I dont see why they cant be represented. Just so u know, things will not get mixed up because any territory that the Central Asian Turks will have in Persia will flip to the Persians and if by any chance they manage to conquer Syria or the Levant than that will be conquered by the Ottomans.

 

[jammerculture]

I also like the idea of a Turkic minor civ in central asia. However, i am content to see what Leoreth has up his sleeve in regards to the mongols as this might incorporate some of what I would like to see. The main roadblock to a central asian civ is with map, as the region is pretty sparse, and changing that could have far reaching consequences.

Also @ the Turk, you need to grow up a little and stop sweating the small stuff, as imo, you often have some good ideas, but it gets lost in the way you present yourself, especially in regards to small issues like a three turn discrepancy. You have shown that you have some modding ability of your own so feel free to change whatever you want in your own game. I for one would rather have Leoreth finish his bug fixes and move onto Asia, then worry about minor tweaks. The middle East has gotten a lot of his attention lately and things have improved tremendously, but you can't expect him to spend all his time and effort on the parts of the game that YOU find important. Just chill out and realize that the whole world doesn't revolve around you.

 

[J. pride]

I also like the idea of a Turkic minor civ in central asia. However, i am content to see what Leoreth has up his sleeve in regards to the mongols as this might incorporate some of what I would like to see. The main roadblock to a central asian civ is with map, as the region is pretty sparse, and changing that could have far reaching consequences.

I totally agree with but this is what i was thinking. The central asian civ should spawn in 950-1000ad flipping Central Asia, Afghanistan and Northern Iran (if any cities are present there). Their main goal should to expand toward Mesopotamia, Syria and Anatolia. This way they weaken the Byzantines and the Arabs thus making room for Persia and Ottoman Turks. As far as the Mongols are concerned, what difference does it make if they conquer Indies or the the central asian turks with the latter actually being interesting. What would make the game even more interesting is if the Central Asians respawn after the Mongol collapse (as the Timurids and Khanate of Bukhara).

As far as the map is concerned, I think a few extra resources will suffice; i totally agree with u as i dont want to make the area too buff either; This is because It would encourage the Central Asian Turks to expand southwards as they historically did. This civilization should be one that starts has a bad starting situation but has huge potential to conquer rich land thus allowing the player to have diversity in gameplay. Come to think of it, Central Asia and Afghanistan arent that bad of region at all. They have access to quite a few resources

 

[jammerculture]

imo the biggest priority in central asia is to get the mongols to conquer it, and by doing so, open up the way to the west, which imo, is the next pressing matter to address in this mod (impotent mongols). way back when, Leoreth asked for suggestions for a new minor civ, and I suggested a Turkic civ in central Asia, thinking that by populating the region it would create a "road of conquest" for the mongols. As well, it could replace the barbarians that harry the romans (from the east), byzantines, persians and chinese, in the earlier game.

a couple of problems with a Turkic civilization (that imo extends to the mongols as well). The game of civ doesn't really allow for nomadic pastoralists as anything other then barbarians. A turkic civ in the early game that starts founding cities, building libraries and cottages etc, would be hugely ahistorical and potentially game breaking as in order to have a civ that can survive in this area you would need to change things (especially food) that would drastically unbalance the game. We saw some screen shots here earlier of a modified Taklamakan dessert that rivalled Egypt in riches! Imagine such an area in the hands of the Russians!

As well the turkic story is one of diaspora and shifting cultural borders, culminating in the conquest of an empire far from their ancestral homelands. This is a great story, but one that is hard to portray in civ terms, especially on a world map that is so "zoomed out". So that's not to say that I wouldn't love to see it, just that in order to do it justice would take some major work that is in short supply on a project with only one modder.

 

[J. pride]

I understand what u are getting at but a couple of points that I think u misunderstood.

a couple of problems with a Turkic civilization (that imo extends to the mongols as well). The game of civ doesn't really allow for nomadic pastoralists as anything other then barbarians. A turkic civ in the early game that starts founding cities, building libraries and cottages etc, would be hugely ahistorical and potentially game breaking as in order to have a civ that can survive in this area you would need to change things (especially food) that would drastically unbalance the game. We saw some screen shots here earlier of a modified Taklamakan dessert that rivalled Egypt in riches! Imagine such an area in the hands of the Russians!

Look at the time period I am proposing, 900-1500 was the Golden Age of Central Asia. The Turks were settling down in the area of modern day Central Asia and Middle East. By this time period, they were no nomadic hunters but the rulers of the greatest civilizations in the world. You are talking about them not building cottages and libraries but you do realize that the central asian city of Merv was the largest city in the world during the 11th century with a population of more than 200,000, thats 10 times larger than most European cities of the time. Cities like Bukhara, Samarkand, Merv and Nishapur were all great centers of learning with populations of more than 100,000. It would be ahistorical not to represent that area
Just like you said Im not i favor of giving that land more resources either. One or two extra resources would suffice ;if u think that even that is too much we can make those resources dispaear after a certain time period.

As well the turkic story is one of diaspora and shifting cultural borders, culminating in the conquest of an empire far from their ancestral homelands. This is a great story, but one that is hard to portray in civ terms, especially on a world map that is so "zoomed out". So that's not to say that I wouldn't love to see it, just that in order to do it justice would take some major work that is in short supply on a project with only one modder.

As ive said before, Im not trying to represent the Turkish migration only the part when they settled down in. If you think about it, its really not that hard to represent.

900-1000 ad: The turks spawn (possibly in Samarkand, Nishapur or Herat)
1200-1300 ad: The Mongol Conquest begins (spawn of Kelshiks in the region; making it like for the Mongols to vassalize or conquer the region). I think vassalizing would be a better option since Mongol control of the region only lasted for a 100 years.
1400 ad: If the Turks are dead, then a Timurid respawn.
1500 ad: Birth of Iran and flip of Persia. The Timurid name changes to Kingdom of Bukhara. They become increasingly unstable and their area dwindles and they eventually collapse (dont make it too determinstic though).
Another option to explore is to have the Turks going into India as the Mughals after 1500, it makes sense historically.

Advantages of having the Central Asian Turks:
-Weakening of Arabia and Byzantines.
-Make room for Ottomans and Persians
-Allow for a proper Mongol conquest plus giving them a chance at vassalization.
-A proper representation of the region

 

[Kraizer]

This mod sounds great, despite me having not played it yet (keeps crashing.)
I have tried playing Germany five times and even tried playing as England once to see if switching to Germany later when they spawn would work, but I still get the same result. Just as the map has finished loading and the game starts to simulate the AI's turns, the game blacks out and returns to my screensaver, just as the rest of my HUD has started loading.

I tried that "HidePythonExceptions=0" thing, but nothing pops-up, so I'm assuming it only happens if there is a problem during the game rather than before it's even started? Anyway, here is the "Problem Signature" if it at all helps:

Spoiler :

Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Civ4BeyondSword.exe
Application Version: 3.1.9.0
Application Timestamp: 4a0c27e6
Fault Module Name: CvGameCoreDLL.dll
Fault Module Version: 0.0.0.0
Fault Module Timestamp: 4d90913a
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 0012e780
OS Version: 6.0.6002.2.2.0.768.3
Locale ID: 1033
Additional Information 1: 3164
Additional Information 2: f31c530d3d12785f4cca5eb2cbce0d8e
Additional Information 3: 011d
Additional Information 4: 01351879a445e41ad4df3ba5eb395c4d

Nonetheless here are some adjustments that would be pretty cool:

1) Playing as Italy from the 600AD start - Wouldn't it be possible to just force an Italian respawn if you select this option?
2) Very minor I know, but having the full list of Spawn/Respawn dates for the Civilizations in the Civilopedia would be very convenient.
3) I don't know if this is already implemented, but giving the European colonial powers varying levels of reduced distance-to-palace maintenance depending on the sizes of their historical empires would promote larger colonial empires. Namely England, then closely followed by Spain/France, then Portugal and ultimately Germany etc...
4) I also think that in order to accurately portray the age of discovery, the Civilization that discovers Astronomy first (or in Portugal's case, Optics) should have the African coastlines etc instantly unveiled, maybe a naval transport or two instantly built and possibly a golden age. The decision to make Portugal only require Optics was merely to increase the likelyhood of the real Portuguese age of Discovery happening, but I suppose having Carracks as your unique unit to boot awell could be pushing it abit, and making Optics a more crucial tech from Portugal's POV would be just as good.
5) Instead of Embassies, early in the game you should build Trading Posts instead. These "Trading Posts" could only be established on another civ's coastal city by a Foreign Merchant (basically a company executive who instead of building a corporation in the target civ, builds a "insert_your_civ_name_here Trading Post" in the City, plus a Trading Post for the Designated Civ in one of your Coastal Cities) thus providing a very significant commerce boost from the get go and allow the trading of resources and gold exclusively (no tech trading or more diplomatic things such as asking them to declare war etc until after a certain tech or date when full blown Embassies become available.) What would make this even more interesting is if the Powers had to compete to build these Trading Posts with each other through some way or other. Maybe by making their a maximum of three Trading Post slots per civ, but giving other civ's the ability to destroy rival Trade Posts during a time of war by approaching this coastal city with one of their ship's and clicking a "Destroy Trade Post" button (thus promting the defense of such cities during war.) I'm aware that this would require quite abit of modding however Plus, you would also have to make trade be considered more important amongst the European civ's, but I don't think any civ truly values trade on this game at the moment anyway.

Also I'd like to apologize for all of my suggestions being associated with the European Civ's, as I know your current focus is on the Middle East

 

[lumpthing]

wow umm...... ok...

Spoiler :

I really think you should bear in mind that Leoreth doesn't owe you anything whatsoever and works on this fantastic mod using his own time for no money. We should be very grateful for all the hard work he's put in, and especially grateful for anything he does at the behest of someone else. If you want a mod that works the way you want it to, learn to code and make it yourself. If you can't be bothered to do that, stop acting like mod-creators have to justify their inaction to you. They don't.

I know that sounds quite rude coming from a stranger, but I think bad attitudes to mod-creators can wear them down, and stop modding from being fun, causing them to quit and concentrate on things that actually reward them. So for the sake of this mod I thought I'd say something.

 

[The Turk]

I really think you should bear in mind that Leoreth doesn't owe you anything whatsoever and works on this fantastic mod using his own time for no money. We should be very grateful for all the hard work he's put in, and especially grateful for anything he does at the behest of someone else. If you want a mod that works the way you want it to, learn to code and make it yourself. If you can't be bothered to do that, stop acting like mod-creators have to justify their inaction to you. They don't.

I know that sounds quite rude coming from a stranger, but I think bad attitudes to mod-creators can wear them down, and stop modding from being fun, causing them to quit and concentrate on things that actually reward them. So for the sake of this mod I thought I'd say something.

I'm sorry, but Leoreth has only been rude/aggressive to me here, and on other threads, including my mods thread. I hope I've just misunderstood him, but its not been easy to do that. What do you have to say about that Lumpthing? I was actually happy the way this ended (as in I was happy to let it slide), you really shouldn't have brought this up, again.

 

[kettenhunde]

another the turk centric conversation.....horray

 

[kettenhunde]

T3) I don't know if this is already implemented, but giving the European colonial powers varying levels of reduced distance-to-palace maintenance depending on the sizes of their historical empires would promote larger colonial empires. Namely England, then closely followed by Spain/France, then Portugal and ultimately Germany etc...

or maybe a free unit whenever such a break through happens...ie rifling you get one rifle free in your capital..

of course if your capital isn't on the sea it would be pointless getting a galleon in lets say berlin/germania.

 

[Orka]

Look at the time period I am proposing, 900-1500 was the Golden Age of Central Asia. The Turks were settling down in the area of modern day Central Asia and Middle East. By this time period, they were no nomadic hunters but the rulers of the greatest civilizations in the world. You are talking about them not building cottages and libraries but you do realize that the central asian city of Merv was the largest city in the world during the 11th century with a population of more than 200,000, thats 10 times larger than most European cities of the time. Cities like Bukhara, Samarkand, Merv and Nishapur were all great centers of learning with populations of more than 100,000. It would be ahistorical not to represent that area
Just like you said Im not i favor of giving that land more resources either. One or two extra resources would suffice ;if u think that even that is too much we can make those resources dispaear after a certain time period.

I wouldn't mind having a Central Asian civ, after Leoreth has finished East Asia. I strongly think that adding new resources will be unnecessary, too, because keep in mind that in game terms that "large" cities of Central Asia with 100,000 - 200,000 people technically corresponds to about 5-6 population in-game.

By the way, I noticed your exaggeration of them being the "greatest civilizations", and would like to remind you of China. China had much larger cities at the time; Kaifeng in the 11th century had 6-700,000 people. The Song Dynasty was an immense innovative and economic heavyweight; during this period they invented gunpowder/movable-type printing and were turning out perhaps 125,000 tons of iron per year in 1078. Central Asia may have been having a golden age, but by any measure it couldn't rival China as the world's greatest civilization.

 

[J. pride]

I wouldn't mind having a Central Asian civ, after Leoreth has finished East Asia. I strongly think that adding new resources will be unnecessary, too, because keep in mind that in game terms that "large" cities of Central Asia with 100,000 - 200,000 people technically corresponds to about 5-6 population in-game.

I totally agree with East Asia, it should be finished first as it is ignored for far too long but i do believe that the central Asian civ should be added at the same time as the Leoreth works on Mongol expansion for balancing purposes. As far as the city size is concerned, Im talking about comparatively because if we looked at the actual figure then there would be European cities with a pop of a million in the middle ages which is absurd. The whole city size system is absurd but thats a whoule another conversation. My point being that the central asian cities were one of the largest cities in the Middle Ages

By the way, I noticed your exaggeration of them being the "greatest civilizations", and would like to remind you of China. China had much larger cities at the time; Kaifeng in the 11th century had 6-700,000 people. The Song Dynasty was an immense innovative and economic heavyweight; during this period they invented gunpowder/movable-type printing and were turning out perhaps 125,000 tons of iron per year in 1078. Central Asia may have been having a golden age, but by any measure it couldn't rival China as the world's greatest civilization.

Saying that Kaifeng has a population had a population of 700,000 is a bit absurd; a more logical and accepted figure would be 400,000. Which is by all means more than the Central Asian cities but I would like to point out that for a short timeperiod was the largest city in the world. I would also like to point out that the Seljuks were also the rulers of much of Middle East in the same timeperiod; meaning that they controlled cities like Baghdad with a population 1.2 million which was by far the largest city in the world. Imo, they could very well rival China (in that timeperiod) as many of the world greatest minds were born in the region including Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, the father of Algebra and Omar Khayyam.

But those are just minor differences as far as the game is concerned; we both agree that significant attention needs to be paid to East Asia and that a Central Asian Civ should be added

 

[kairob]

Wasn't Diophantus the father of algebra?