SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
Why not make it so that researching Fascism/Nationalism and Mass Media each give 1-2 unhappiness upon discovery?
Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
- Thread starter Leoreth
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Why not make it so that researching Fascism/Nationalism and Mass Media each give 1-2 unhappiness upon discovery?
Why do we discuss about Future tech? It is obvious that by the time you have aquired as much hapiness and health as you need, then the slider will go to espisionage and lot's lot's of gold: units and building rushing, bribes, maintanance.
When you know everything research is useless.
When you know everything research is useless.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I hope you're kidding.
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
Hold on, I have reasoning in there somewhere. It's not all just me trying to add in some arbitrary penalties. I understand that propaganda, strong national sentiment and other factors associated with the technologies listed could easily reduce unhappiness in the majority. What I was attempting to show was how strong nationalist sentiment and the expressions of national and racial superiority that could arise from it would stir up considerable discontent amongst the minorities in a nation. For any expansive nation in civ, it would be a stretch to imply that the ethnicities and cultures of your population are not diversified at all. As such, no matter how much propaganda might reduce the unhappiness of your majority culture, it would likely serve to foster far more unhappiness amongst the many minorities, because let's face it: If I am playing as any civ but the Mayans, there is almost no chance of me not having taken cities and encroached on foreign land.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I would like to compare your proposal mechanically to Scientific Method.
As you know, Scientific Method is a gateway tech to a number of highly critical and important techs,
namely Physics & Biology, and a number of military oriented technologies that come after it.
It comes at a severe cost in that it obsoletes the tech bonus of Monasteries, which up until Scientific Method, contributes a significant portion of your beaker output.
So do you choose to tech a little better for awhile? Or do you get that military edge at a time when your contemporaries are likely upgrading their armies?
It's an interesting choice and that's why it works for Scientific Method.
Take your proposed Mass Media nerf though. Let's say Mass Media inflicts -1 civ-wide
upon discovery.You'd immediately have to build Broadcast Towers in all your cities to offset the malus you received.
The thing that bothers me is that none of the techs you listed make the player make any kind of interesting choice like Scientific Method does.
In short, it doesn't really add, only takes away; with the exception of Mass Media, in which it provides access to Wonders, but it's not "big" enough of a thing to justify the -1.
Mass Media, Fascism, & Nationalism don't really open up any critical techs that you would have otherwise been forced to choose from as well, unlike Scientific Method.
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
I would like to compare your proposal mechanically to Scientific Method.
As you know, Scientific Method is a gateway tech to a number of highly critical and important techs,
namely Physics & Biology, and a number of military oriented technologies that come after it.
It comes at a severe cost in that it obsoletes the tech bonus of Monasteries, which up until Scientific Method, contributes a significant portion of your beaker output.
So do you choose to tech a little better for awhile? Or do you get that military edge at a time when your contemporaries are likely upgrading their armies?
It's an interesting choice and that's why it works for Scientific Method.
Take your proposed Mass Media nerf though. Let's say Mass Media inflicts -1 civ-wide
You'd immediately have to build Broadcast Towers in all your cities to offset the malus you received.
The thing that bothers me is that none of the techs you listed make the player make any kind of interesting choice like Scientific Method does.
In short, it doesn't really add, only takes away; with the exception of Mass Media, in which it provides access to Wonders, but it's not "big" enough of a thing to justify the -1.
Mass Media, Fascism, & Nationalism don't really open up any critical techs that you would have otherwise been forced to choose from as well, unlike Scientific Method.
Why not just make unhappiness based on the turn? i.e. from 1850, 1
TD, I can see where you are coming from in terms of gameplay. Nationalism and Mass Media may be useful in a way, but only for certain civs and the unhappiness effect would likely outweigh the gains from the tech. However, if it is possible, I think that NKN's proposal would work just fine from a gameplay perspective, provided that no one is ahistorically ahead, in which case it might not make much sense.
I still feel like a tech is a better way to implement this as result of possible tech level discrepancies, and as such would like to take another stab at it: Liberalism. We all (hopefully) consider this an important tech, not just because of the civics and techs it unlocks, but also the all important free technology. However, if someone had already beaten the player too it, they might believe that the unhappiness outweighs the benefits, just like with my earlier technologies. As such, I would propose that Leoreth might try to code it so that upon the "First to Discover Liberalism" every nation in contact with the discovering nation receives a "Liberal Age" event, which increases unhappiness, culture and gives stability maluses to Monarchies and Autocracies. If the AI could somehow be made to understand that Liberalism has this tied to it, or be coded so that this makes Republics and similar civics more preferable to the AI, it might help result in a more realistic later game.
Malchar
Prince
I don't think that Fascism should create unhappiness when you discover it. Nationalism certainly shouldn't. They aren't great forms of government, but they're certainly better than whatever existed before them. If anything, I think that it makes more sense to attach the unhappiness penalty to Democracy because that's when you're essentially opening the government up to the people's opinions. It's also more consistent with how the original game played out where the penalty was attached to Universal Suffrage.
In fact, I don't think that there should be any penalties just for researching Nationalism or Fascism. Just because you have the technology to adopt those civics it doesn't mean that you will. In fact I would think it would be a benefit to the people if their government had the capability to adopt fascism civics but chose not to do so.
I think it is much cleaner to simply attach all of the bonuses/penalties to the civic options that the player chooses rather than to the technologies researched. Otherwise you can have a situation where there's no turning back. It's fine if the tech only provides positive advantages, but if there are negative effects like unhappiness then you could be permanently screwed. It would also let players mess with the AI opponents by trading them these techs that would give penalties that they aren't ready to deal with.
In fact, I don't think that there should be any penalties just for researching Nationalism or Fascism. Just because you have the technology to adopt those civics it doesn't mean that you will. In fact I would think it would be a benefit to the people if their government had the capability to adopt fascism civics but chose not to do so.
I think it is much cleaner to simply attach all of the bonuses/penalties to the civic options that the player chooses rather than to the technologies researched. Otherwise you can have a situation where there's no turning back. It's fine if the tech only provides positive advantages, but if there are negative effects like unhappiness then you could be permanently screwed. It would also let players mess with the AI opponents by trading them these techs that would give penalties that they aren't ready to deal with.
Moshe Dayan
Da General
A couple of things:
1) I've updated the Better Dynamic Names Mod to work with DoC. Check it out if you like.
[/shameless self-promotion]
2) When playing Spain and controlling Iberia, is the Spanish capital supposed to automatically shift to Cordoba without me building a palace, and without removing the palace in my old capital and instead giving me a second one?
1) I've updated the Better Dynamic Names Mod to work with DoC. Check it out if you like.
[/shameless self-promotion]2) When playing Spain and controlling Iberia, is the Spanish capital supposed to automatically shift to Cordoba without me building a palace, and without removing the palace in my old capital and instead giving me a second one?
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
^I would suggest looking into a possible merge with the EDCN project that's being managed by Hippo8085 right now.
ales_
Heir
Yes. It would be very interesting.
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
Yes, but what about Liberalism, as said previously? I think most of the forum agrees on the fact that unhappiness really isn't as big an issue as it should be, especially in the late game, so obviously there is an ingame reason to implement some kind of tech or date penalty. By attaching it to Liberalism, you slightly nerf an excellent and important tech, allowing the player to juggle whether they really need it or not. As to the AI exploit issue, I would propose that the AI should be made to prefer Republic and similar civics more than it currently does, which would lead to less late game monarchies. Then, a happiness bonus could be added to Universal Suffrage and Republic to outweigh the majority of the unhappiness that comes with the tech. The bulk of the unhappiness should occur only if you attempt to remain a stodgy old monarchy.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I disagree on the basis that an American & Prussian start is typically still wracked with all sorts of Unhappiness issues.
A late game Monarchy should be viable as well; considering we have a number of IRL examples to go by: Spain, Thailand, England, Japan, etc.
Whatever Unhappiness issues present in those countries don't have any correlation with the fact that they are monarchies,
though you could argue that their monarchies have little to no influence on their government as well.
SheaferDaDawg
Intelligent Canine
I would probably argue the last bit, but I can see your point to an extent. What then, should we use to increase late game unhappiness?
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I would suggest a new Unhappiness source that stems from the city having more Unhealthiness than Health.
This is sufficient because late game growth is so fast that you're hard pressed to inhibit yourself.
And I feel it's a good compromise between nerfing super-cities into the ground and preserving the worth of super-cities.
archcapitalist
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
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- 263
since i couldnt get the svn to work correctly, i decided to just delete it all and reinstall the mod
and now im running into a problem where i try to extract into the mods folder and it has ten million errors. any ideas?
and now im running into a problem where i try to extract into the mods folder and it has ten million errors. any ideas?
archcapitalist
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Messages
- 263
i think its more a general rar issue. i remember having an issue with rfc europe for a long time.
i know i can neither. move the rar to the desired folder and then extract, nor can i extract it and then move the folder. i have to extract it from the downloads to the mods folder.
but just now, its saying "cannot create rfc......" for each of the folders
file path not found
any ideas?
Chep
Emperor
you can't extract it and then move it? that seems like a general problem you should fix :/
for the extraction, are you running your extraction programm (winzip, 7zip,...) as an administrator?
(this shouldn't be an issue nowadays, but make sure you have enough space on your harddrive^^)
for the extraction, are you running your extraction programm (winzip, 7zip,...) as an administrator?
(this shouldn't be an issue nowadays, but make sure you have enough space on your harddrive^^)
archcapitalist
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Messages
- 263
i can extract it and then move it. but whenever ive done that, mods havent loaded right.
(it will load but then the scenario isnt available)
it might be the administrator thing. im not sure how to fix that though
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