Do you like Sam Harris?

a-theist: without belief in god.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any divine being. It makes no claims whatsoever, except for stating that the person in question doesn't believe in divine beings.
 
religious folk believe a divine being is responsible for the universe

atheists reject that idea, there is no divine being responsible for the universe
 
Am a Christian so disagree with much of what he posts. That said, like Maher, he's an equal opportunity religion basher. I agree with his views on Islam, don't agree with much of his anti Christian posts.

As for his style, imo, this sez it all

New athiests - don't like their style.
Hmm. Having re-read your post, we have a problem here. You're accusing "new athiests" (whatever those are) of physical violence, or of advocating physical violence, toward Christians.

This is so much utter nonsense, I don't really know where to begin.

Well, first of all: The proper spelling is "atheists." Not "athiests." If you're going to insult an entire group of people, at least have the courtesy to spell the collective noun correctly.

Second of all: WTH is a "new" atheist? Is that alt-right-speak for atheists who dare to speak openly to the public and make YouTube videos? I've been called by that term myself, just for commenting on YT pages, and if memory serves, even by one or two people on this forum.

Yes, I'm atheist. I've been atheist for most of my life. Even as a 6-year-old I resented being forced to participate in mandatory morning prayers in a non-Catholic school. But that's what happens in a bible-belt region - sometimes you get teachers who impose their own religion on a captive audience - the students, who before we had the Charter of Rights, had no choice to opt out and not be punished for doing so. If I'd tried to opt out of prayers in my Grade 1 classes, I'd have received detention.

Even in college, when I was in the B.Ed. program (Bachelor of Education), my practicum was at a public elementary school, and the regular teacher made the students recite prayers. I sat out the first time, but was told by the teacher that sitting out wasn't allowed. Since this teacher had the final say over whether or not I would be allowed to continue in the program, I felt coerced into participating - very much against my will.

This all happened before we had the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which would have guaranteed my right not to be punished or discriminated against for exercising my free choice not to participate in a religious ritual at the order of this teacher.

Of course I'm going to speak out against mandatory prayers. Pray in the home, pray in church/temple/mosque, pray in your mind anywhere you want. But do not impose it on other people against their will. Do not bring it into government, the courts, schools, or other public places, and do not punish or try to "shame" others for not participating.

Even the Remembrance Day ceremonies on Parliament Hill now acknowledge that not everyone attending or watching is religious. It's a solemn day for everyone, the ceremony is multi-faith, and non-religious people are not told to pray.
 
Welp, I guess I've got to admit it was I who didn't read a post

this is wrong

Atheists "know" some things that are not responsible for the universe
and not what actually is

;) religious folk are making the same claim when they attribute existence to a creator, they 'know' what is not responsible too (a non-creator)... Atheists cannot exclude a divine being from the possibilities, doing so makes a claim of knowledge we dont have. I dont know what is responsible so all I can do is speculate, but it seems 'knowing' does tend to produce a less humble approach that quickly devolves into flame wars.
 
Don't get into a semantics debate on 'atheist' until I can get home and post on the OP before that debate ruins the thread!
 
Interesting. How do you get the opinion that Affleck doesn't disagree with them? I've seen the clip multiple times, and I have never been able to not see it as Affleck refusing to listen to any arguments and just screaming "racism" to shut down the conversation.
Right, Affleck comes off very poorly in this video. It's really noticeable that he's the one getting the most exasperated and the most demonstrative in that video (Maher turns it up a little too, a couple of times). At around 4:20 he tries to interrupt Harris to agree with him. At about 5:18 he tries to cut him off again; listening a second time I'm actually uncertain from his tone whether he's agreeing with Harris or mocking him, but my first take was that it was the former. Affleck gets straight-up rude, actually giving Harris a little "wrap it up" finger wag at one point. But, meh, whatever; it's clear after a couple of minutes that Affleck's punching above his weight in this discussion. If his name drew some viewers, then I suppose he contributed something.

So then Kristof and Steele start talking about the Muslims who are speaking out and trying to enact some change, which doesn't seem to refute the points that Harris and Maher make. At 5:25, Harris says "we have to empower the true reformers in the Muslim world" and then at 6:18 Steele says, "there are voices that are often times raised in opposition to these jihadists [but] they don't get the same platform that we see the jihadists getting." So they're making a lot of complementary points. Whether the fringe element are a majority or a vocal minority seems like a detail to me, and I'm not sure it's an important one, but maybe there's something there that I'm not thinking of. Compare a racist-majority system like Jim Crowe-era USA to a racist-minority system like apartheid South Africa. Is that an important or useful distinction? Maybe, but it seems like it's picking a nit, and it doesn't seem helpful for the people who want to combat racism to argue over whether it's a Jim Crowe-type system or an apartheid-type system. The actual racists are laughing at us when we do that.
 
do you really not understand the difference between positive and negative claims?
Right, I think Dawkins had a bone to pick with agnosticism because it seems to give equal weight to the possibility that God exists as doesn't. I don't know what Harris has to say about that, but I'm with Dawkins on that point. Also, we have evidence that strongly refutes some religious claims, or things that religion used to claim. Simply put, religious faith has a poor record in head-to-head matches against empiricism. Religion can only manage a draw when there's no conclusive evidence at all. The only proverbial games that go religion's way are the ones that end 0-0.
 
Atheists and religious folk 'know' what is responsible for the universe, so whats the difference?

I do? What makes you think that?

Right, I think Dawkins had a bone to pick with agnosticism because it seems to give equal weight to the possibility that God exists as doesn't.

I suppose that 0=0 after all, but..
 
Right, Affleck comes off very poorly in this video. It's really noticeable that he's the one getting the most exasperated and the most demonstrative in that video (Maher turns it up a little too, a couple of times). At around 4:20 he tries to interrupt Harris to agree with him. At about 5:18 he tries to cut him off again; listening a second time I'm actually uncertain from his tone whether he's agreeing with Harris or mocking him, but my first take was that it was the former. Affleck gets straight-up rude, actually giving Harris a little "wrap it up" finger wag at one point. But, meh, whatever; it's clear after a couple of minutes that Affleck's punching above his weight in this discussion. If his name drew some viewers, then I suppose he contributed something.

So then Kristof and Steele start talking about the Muslims who are speaking out and trying to enact some change, which doesn't seem to refute the points that Harris and Maher make. At 5:25, Harris says "we have to empower the true reformers in the Muslim world" and then at 6:18 Steele says, "there are voices that are often times raised in opposition to these jihadists [but] they don't get the same platform that we see the jihadists getting." So they're making a lot of complementary points. Whether the fringe element are a majority or a vocal minority seems like a detail to me, and I'm not sure it's an important one, but maybe there's something there that I'm not thinking of. Compare a racist-majority system like Jim Crowe-era USA to a racist-minority system like apartheid South Africa. Is that an important or useful distinction? Maybe, but it seems like it's picking a nit, and it doesn't seem helpful for the people who want to combat racism to argue over whether it's a Jim Crowe-type system or an apartheid-type system. The actual racists are laughing at us when we do that.
Huh. That feels like a very nice reading of the situation to me. Think I shall have to rewatch the event during the weekend. As for the truth of the matter, and Harris' views on it, this was several years ago. He's gotten some pushback (in a way more constructive way than Affleck managed) and have updated his views accordingly. I strongly suggest the Islam and the Future of Tolerance book he cowrote. The link I posted earlier is a pretty good overview, but here's an hour-long panel on it as well:


And as for the agnostic/atheist topic, I think most people when thinking about it, would realise that an agnostic doesn't actually think the probabilities are equal. In fact, I'd argue that most people, whether religious or not, act as if they are atheists: Very few people go through life constantly thinking "What Would Jesus/Buddha/El/Thor/Bhrama/etc. Do?". The cynical me would argue it's because they don't actually really believe, but I'd settle for noting that most people act as if there are no divine beings around.
 
A lot of people incorrectly assume that "agnostic" is just a watered down version of "atheist"

The key is understanding that they lie on completely different axes. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, while atheism deals with belief. So you can be an agnostic who is also an atheist.. or an agnostic who isn't an atheist. etc.
 
One thing I'll give to Harris is, at least he appears to be a sincere atheist. Dawkins is just a Protestant who's figured out a way to set himself one step further removed from the Vatican.
 
I really don't care that much what religion people believe in so long as they don't rail against established science and take humanist positions on moral issues.

By marrying these positions to atheism as some of the "new atheists" do they create barriers to religious people adopting those views.
 
I really don't care that much what religion people believe in so long as they don't rail against established science and take humanist positions on moral issues.

By marrying these positions to atheism as some of the "new atheists" do they create barriers to religious people adopting those views.

That's a pretty good way of putting it, since religion is often quite important to people's identities. Atheism used to be really important to my identity.
 
I watched a few of Harris' videos and I remember him from the Affleck meltdown on Bill Maher. I do like him, I'll look to see how he defends atheism.

do you really not understand the difference between positive and negative claims?

Apparently... One side says the universe has no creator, the other side says it does. Both sides claim to know they're right. Whats the difference?

Right, I think Dawkins had a bone to pick with agnosticism because it seems to give equal weight to the possibility that God exists as doesn't

I'm agnostic and I'd lean to the 'divine' origin side... I figure if the universe is infused with life, then life preceded the universe. But maybe not :)

A lot of people incorrectly assume that "agnostic" is just a watered down version of "atheist"

The key is understanding that they lie on completely different axes. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, while atheism deals with belief. So you can be an agnostic who is also an atheist.. or an agnostic who isn't an atheist. etc.

I thought agnostics claimed to not know while atheists do.
 
The Bible represents several religions and a majority of the world's faithful, do you have a better example? How is it up to the individual atheist to believe in a creator? If they believe in a creator, they're not an atheist. They're not even agnostic...
 
I was intrigued so I watched the link where it says sam harris destroys Catholicism. I was waiting for my takeout order so I only got about half way through, but feel I got the jist of it. It's very hard to judge what he is saying without hearing the speech he was rebutting. But the title is half right, he certainly destroyed something. But it wasn't Catholicism. Seemed more like Christian fundamentalist protestants than anything else. And in that regard I can't really blame anyone for going all gung ho on them, they kind of brought it on themselves cus a lot of the fundamentalist world views don't make any sense. The problem for the remaining Christians, and especially Catholics, is we get lumped into the same category. I found myself agreeing with what harris said, just not with his conclusion, ie atheism.

I haven't watched a ton of these, but this guy does a pretty good job of explaining what catholicism is really about.
https://www.youtube.com/user/wordonfirevideo


The Bible represents several religions and a majority of the world's faithful, do you have a better example? How is it up to the individual atheist to believe in a creator? If they believe in a creator, they're not an atheist. They're not even agnostic...

What you are saying makes no sense. By definition agnostics believe in god, ie creator, who is just indifferent.
 
It's one thing to disagree with Sam Harris (I personally do) but the 'Sam Harris is a racist Islamophobe' people are pure pathetic. He criticizes ALL religions, not just Islam. Islam is not a race anyway. Most Christians (at least in the west) are white. Is Sam Harris racist against whites? Like I said, it's ok to criticize him and disagree with him, but don't talk out of your ass.
 
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