Dutch authorities sue parents of 13 year-old to stop solo sail trip around the world

[nonconformist]

If it were a guy, I'm sure most CFCers would see this as just part of the world's longest wankathon.

 

[Cheetah]

If it were a guy, I'm sure most CFCers would see this as just part of the world's longest wankathon.

I did ask myself if I would see it differently if it was a guy who wanted to do this, but even though it would be easier for me to accept it then, I still think 14 is too young.

 

[Kennigit]

I'm 100% sure she is perfectly capable of the trip, but she should attend school. So, my vote is a no.

I support compulsory education as a policy. Yes, I do believe that she could get more than sufficient education via email and online learning on her trip, but I'm still against it.

 

[Flying Pig]

 

[J-man]

If it were a guy, I'm sure most CFCers would see this as just part of the world's longest wankathon.

Well, the previous record holders are all male.

The court decides next Friday, then we will hear if she is allowed to go.
I'm putting my money on a 'NO' from the court.

 

[Yared]

Months all alone on some raft in the middle of nowhere with only a laptop and internet connection...

I concur!

 

[Bill3000]

If she wants to risk her own life with the blessing of her parents, what right does the state have to stop it?

Because she's a child, and the state has a legitimate interest in protecting the welfare of its children.
Duh.

When(if) she comes back, she'll be an accomplished sailor with salt water in her veins. Everyone doesn't need to be like everyone else. She probably doesn't need a college education to get an overpriced degree they may not even use like most people. Who cares if she can't write a good literary analysis essay?

oo oo look at me i'm so cool and edgy to be against public education oo oo

 

[Formaldehyde]

There are no internet connections on the high seas outside of Iridium, which is incredibly expensive.

 

[Yared]

Originally Posted by Shylock
If she wants to risk her own life with the blessing of her parents, what right does the state have to stop it?

Because she's a child, and the state has a legitimate interest in protecting its children from harm.
Duh.

In the end, all CFC threads come down to ideological discussions regarding the limitations of the state as determined by the ideologies of CFC's users.

 

[Bill3000]

In the end, all CFC threads come down to the limitations of the state as determined by the ideologies of CFC's users.

The harm principle doesn't apply to children as they are not sufficiently rational or responsible. It's less "limitations of the state" as it is "Shylock fails his basic liberalism"

 

[IglooDame]

Can you legally drive when you're 14? If not, then I guess it's hard to say that you can do this when you're 14.

Can one competently drive when they're 14? Most can't, some can, particularly if they've been immersed in the automotive world since they were born.

Well being an accomplished sail boater doesn't really put food on the table. It's kind of a century or so behind the times.

But there's a few careers related to it, mostly in the marine-related professions. And many people cruise the world full-time, just stopping in various ports and picking up odd jobs here or there as necessary.

You can't have a private tutor on a solo misson.

Sure you can, via web-conferencing and such.

Well I'll ignore the fact that I've never heard of such a thing existing and go straight to the point that sailors probably need their radio for emergency purposes. If you cut off internet access then she can't do her homework. I'm guessing it's going to be a laptop with a satellite connection so I doubt you're going to be able to convince the satellite company to filter your daughters connection and make sure she only goes to homework related sites

No, I mean radio stations via internet. You've probably heard of that. But in general you've not heard of individual applications being password-protected? Given that internet connection, parents could go in and manipulate the girl's laptop and update the available applications on virtually a daily basis. No, it's not a common use, but this isn't a common situation.

Or they could just be bad parents.

Yep. But let's hope that they can be judged as to whether they're good or bad parents based on past history, given the legitimately mixed feelings on this particular decision.

I still don't think it's the same as physical presence in a class room with your peers.

No, it's not the same, but it's a question of how inferior (or for that matter how superior) one is to the other. Obviously we disagree on that. I doubt you're going to convince me that you're right, given that I have experience with distance learning and offshore sailing (and PC/networking support) and you've not pointed out yet where the facts that form the basis of my opinion are incorrect.

How big does your solar cells need to be to run a laptop (assume the parents are really rich)?

There are lots of other electronics on the boat - while solar cells are certainly useful, there are also wind generators and plain 'ol diesel generators to charge the boat's main battery banks (which are composed of marine-grade car batteries in most cases).

 

[aelf]

Can one competently drive when they're 14? Most can't, some can, particularly if they've been immersed in the automotive world since they were born.

But 14-year-olds are not allowed to drive no matter how competent. And I'd think that there are probably psychological or biological reasons behind that, but that doesn't matter. The point is we already decide when people are old enough to engage in other dangerous activities, and general standards are there to minimise the risks of deciding on a purely case-by-case basis.

 

[IglooDame]

But 14-year-olds are not allowed to drive no matter how competent. And I'd think that there are probably psychological or biological reasons behind that, but that doesn't matter. The point is we're always deciding when people are old enough to do something, and general standards are there to minimise the risks of deciding on a purely case-by-case basis.

They're not allowed to drive on public roads. I think the difference is significant. The point is that we're not always deciding when people are old enough to do everything, and piloting a sailboat is apparently one of those things that isn't covered (yet, anyway).

 

[Bill3000]

They're not allowed to drive on public roads. I think the difference is significant.

This is false. Certainly in my state at least, it covers a license to drive the vehicle, period. Regulations cover private roads, too. Not much of a significant difference because the regulations would certainly cover private roads if most roads were private, and ocean waters within the borders of a country is public territory, anyway. Also regulations with regards to children exist within private property, anyway. (alcohol and cigarette laws, child labor laws, etc) Again, protecting the welfare of children by prohibiting them from doing certain dangerous activities is a legitimate government interest.

 

[aelf]

They're not allowed to drive on public roads. I think the difference is significant. The point is that we're not always deciding when people are old enough to do everything, and piloting a sailboat is apparently one of those things that isn't covered (yet, anyway).

But it should, going on the general principle, so I'm not surprised they're trying to stop her.

Too bad reality doesn't jibe with a lot of libertarian ideals. People aren't free to do whatever they like, including potentially inflicting harm on themselves in some cases, and for very good reasons.

 

[Mise]

Those restrictions apply within a nations own borders. What right do they have to go out and retrieve her from international waters? Or from another country when she stops.

She has to set sail from somebody's borders.

 

[Bill3000]

Too bad reality doesn't jibe with a lot of libertarian ideals. People aren't free to do whatever they like, including potentially inflicting harm on themselves in some cases, and for very good reasons.

This isn't even libertarian. The entire point of the harm principle is that it is limited to rational, full grown adults, and they have the ability to rationally decide what is best for themselves. This isn't true for children, and as a result they have a significantly less amount of liberty than adults. The dude who freaking invented the harm principle left exceptions for children:

Nevertheless, when there is not a certainty, but only a danger of mischief, no one buit the person himself can judge the sufficiency of the motive which may prompt him to incur the risk: in this case, therefore (unless he is a child, or delirious, or in some state of excitement or absorption incompatible with the full use of the reflecting faculty), he ought, I conceive, to only be warned of the danger; not forcibly prevented from exposing himself to it.

 

[aelf]

This isn't even libertarian. The entire point of the harm principle is that it is limited to rational, full grown adult citizens, and they have the ability to rationally decide what is best for themselves. This isn't true for children, and as a result they have a significantly less amount of liberty than adults.

Well, I wanted to point out that libertarian ideals don't even apply a lot of the time in reality. So there's no angle to argue based on them even if one assumes that this girl is intelligent and competent enough to rationally assess the risks such that she is effectively as rational as an adult in deciding on this (which seems to be the idea conveyed when the question of competence was brought up - basically trying to cheat by saying that as competent as an adult = as good as an adult in deciding on engaging in a particular activity).

 

[GinandTonic]

As people have noted boys (plural) have done this at 15, or at least started on the project at 15. I traveled internationally alone younger than her, clearly just from point a to b via planes, ferries, coaches and trains but social services were never called.

As to the driving comparison, well over here on private land you can do as you will. Sure some ports could insist on sending a pilot to bring the boat into port but I just cant see the vast, vast majority of small ports having that kind of oversight of paperwork.

What is something of a concern is if she is insured and has the relivant licences. I know that to get even vaguely sensible insurance to take his yacht long distance a guy I know had to get his poor long suffering lady to get a bunch of licences too. How one person with (?) no licences can get insured is beyond me.

 

[.Shane.]

I think that's a bit young for a solo journey, male or female. That said, the defacto reality is there's not much the Dutch can do to stop it, I'd think.

Prediction: Just like we saw a few years ago when kids were competing to be the "youngest" person to pilot a plane across the United States/whatever, there'll be a lot of "wow this is great", "shows how we should trust young people" and then some 13 year old will die and then it'll be "OMG HOW COULD THEY!" "Irresponsible parents!" blah blah blah

So, it is irresponsible, but I'm not sure you can prevent it.