Eastern Europe is NOT under-represented

[TheLastOne36]

Also Cyberkhan we beated russia. How's that for beating a superpower.

Then we saved a superpower from becoming muslim.

 

[Duncan_Idaho]

Whah whah whah.

****
And what is this "fascinating history" business? If Eastern Europe was damn fascinating and wonderful you'd think we would have heard about it. I've never read anything particularly interesting about Eastern Europe. As far as I'm concenred the only reason Eastern Europe is underrepresented and Western Europe is overrepresented is because Western Europe and Russia have had a long history of power and Eastern Europe has had a long history of nothing except existing, getting conquered, etc.

Haha quote war!!! So, first off, I'm Bulgarian, not Polish. Second, Bulgaria had had a long cultural history before most of today's cities in Western Europe and Russia could call themselves villages (like having it's own alphabet, unlike most of the rest of Europe for example). Domination? Bulgaria was a major dominating force in Europe from the 7th century until the 14th century, stopping the first and the 4th crusades (as in terminating them), conquering some land even off Charlemagne.
However, the defeat of Charlemagne meant nothing to Bulgaria back at this time because western Europe was still in the dark ages, while Bulgaria was flourishing!
Western Europe and Russia were disorganized and weak at this time, the major forces in Europe being Byzantium and Bulgaria. While the people of Western Europe had immense trouble with the Arabs, the Bulgarians had crushed the Arabs in the 8th century so bad that they never thought of coming back again, driving them to seek an opening to Europe through Spain and France, who in turn couldn't resist them very well.

There's your quote war!

 

[Angst]

Whah whah whah.

I've yet to hear one single decent reason why Poland should be in that I or a number of other people haven't thoroughly refuted. The only thing remotely close has been "They are a major ethnic group that is unrepresented" but there are so many groups that have been lumped together in Asia or ignored completely in Africa that you really can't make that arguement. And what is this "fascinating history" business? If Eastern Europe was damn fascinating and wonderful you'd think we would have heard about it. I've never read anything particularly interesting about Eastern Europe. As far as I'm concenred the only reason Eastern Europe is underrepresented and Western Europe is overrepresented is because Western Europe and Russia have had a long history of power and Eastern Europe has had a long history of nothing except existing, getting conquered, etc.

That's going to piss off a lot of you Polish people, and maybe if Civ ever expanded AGAIN there would be room for the Poles, but not before they split the Chinese dynasties, include another South Asia and South-East Asian civ, a Polynesian civ, perhaps the Olmecs or Brazilians, Nubians... I'm not sure about the Huns, but from a purely financial standpoint I think they would attract more new players than a Polish empire. I just think some of you people are too busy trying to fill in dots in Europe and completely ignoring the rest of the world, and then you're justifying it with your stupid American schtick because we don't think Poland or Eastern-Europe warrants more representation.

Well, the most modern factual litterature does not discuss Eastern Europe because of the small amount of influence we recieve from the area today (Except Russia).

Historical writings can also be incorrect. A writer has his or her opinions, and as most English, German and French history-writers (Or wherever they come from) focuses on their own nations' history they will likely ignore previous powerhouses as Poland.

England fx has a tendency to declare itself a very powerful nation in, say, 1200. It was, but was actually not stronger than Scotland fx. And France was equal with Burgundy in some time, but they mostly define Burgundy as a powerless English vassal state in many aspects.

Of course, this is only from the books I've read so far.

An alternate thing... Denmark, sorry to use that as an example, was a major power in the Medieval era (Also after the Viking era). Shortly said, we were controlling Scandinavia for some centuries. But modern Danish litterature defines Denmark as a retarted minor country and has done so since the war against Prussia in 1800 something. The fact was that Denmark had improved its boundaries and economy from about 1000 to 1650 did not affect any kind of logic in modern Danish litterature.

Much history is therefore defined from a modern view. It is logical, as it is the era we are living in.

AKA: You will not hear much of the history in Eastern Europe as the area isn't very important today.

remember children (and not-children), "fascinating history" is just an opinion. i think Vietnamese history is more interesting than Polish history. seriously. whats more awesome than beating the **** out of a bunch of superpowers? that is opinion.

seriously, if they have the HRE, they should split China into the "Early Chinese" (Han, Tang, etc.), "Middle Chinese" (Song, Ming, etc.) and "Modern Chinese" (PRC). hehe.

i am in full support of representation, and an addition to Eastern Europe would be nice. if, in a third unlikely expansion, the civ list is something like this:

- Eastern European civ (Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.)
- South American civ (Brazil, Venuezla, Argentina, etc.)
- Polynesia
- Indonesia
- Maybe another SE Asian civ (Only VIetnam here! fine, maybe Thailand too)
- African Civ (Congo, Swahili, Kanem-Bornu, etc.)
- Central Asian civ (Kurds, Turkmens, Parthia, Bactria, etc.)

if the civ list was something like that, i think we would have a good and decent representation of the world.

but, of course, someones still going to have to complain.

I agree.

 

[TheLastOne36]

let me Start with Poland

Poland is one of the oldest places in the world. Poland began 4000 years ago when there were Polish Slav tribes inhabiting the area of the Vistula river.

Mieszko I King of Poland was Baptized and Christianity became Poland's Official Religion. The rest of europe was basically dying from the black death, but the Black Death did not reach Poland and Poland became prosperous and powerful.

After that, The Jagiellon dynasty began. Poland formed a union(then later a Commonwealth) with Lithuania. Lithuanian inhabited lands became part of the union/Commonwealth. (this is why in maps lithuania looks so big. the truth is, It wasn't.)

During the Golden Age. Poland became the largest country in all of europe. (except for Russia and Ottomans)

Battle of vienna. This is the battle that could've turned Austria into a muslim Country. Sobieski (notice the 'ski' at the end of the name. That symbolizes he's polish) King of Poland brought down a huge relief force of Poles, Prussians and Russians (mainly polish though) to save the Austrian Capital.

Russia, Prussia and Austria made a pact to "share" Poland between them. They Split Poland and that is the end of poland's history till WW1.

WW1 Poland fought and all. pretty much every country did. Nothing important here. At the end of the war, Poland Regained independence. This is the Good part. Poland didn't have all the land it originally owned at the end of the war. So the Bolshevik Wars started when Pilsudski in particular set out a series of campaigns to capture Russian lands for poland. And geuss what? We beated the russians more then ounce in the war. Poland at the end won against Russia.

the period between the wars was mainly to get the country back on track.

WW2 Started when Germany attacked poland and asked russia to join in. they split poland between the two of them. We could've atleast resisted on of them attacking. but 2? And the damned French and English didn't help us at all.

We never surrendered though. France did surrender in less time then the "defeat of poland" did. Even after that, we battled alongside and against many people in the war. the most famous battle is the battle of Monte Casino where nobody except the poles could take the Mountain. (i'm sure if britain or someone send a big enough force they would've tooken it). My great grand father alone fought in the battle of poland, Warsaw Uprising, Monte Casino, D-day, Market Garden and skirmishes in northern Africa.

geuss what? We set up to quote wars

 

[Legat]

Then we saved a superpower from becoming muslim.

I guess you mean the battle of Vienna here? Well, first of all the Balkan peninsula has been under muslim rule for several centuries and most of the peoples stayed christian. So even if the Turks conquered Vienna it's just speculation if it really would become muslim.

With "superpower" do you mean the HRE? Even if the Turks conquered Vienna, i don't think that the rest of central Europe would have been sitting at home frightened by the Turks and waiting for being converted to muslims. The Turks would have been stopped somewhere else sooner or later. But that's all just senseless speculation.

I don't want to reduce what Poland did in this battle but i doubt that the existance of christianity in central Europe was really in danger at that time.

 

[TheLastOne36]

It was. The superpower at the time was Austria. in fact the actual letter from the austrian king to Sobieski King of Poland, was "Please, Help not for the sake of Austria, But for the sake of Europe and the Christian Faith" Or something like that. I'll try to find the letter on wikipedia or something.

And i'm sure that the area between ottoman conquest and the Nazi's were different. My guessing is that the area was more muslim then it is today. The Swastika must've scared them away

 

[LuKo]

You forgot about most important Polish battle- Battle of Warsaw. And about biggest battle in Middle Ages- Battle of Grunwald.

Poland began 4000 years ago when there were Polish Slav tribes inhabiting the area of the Vistula river.

Slavic people came to Europe much later, so we can't say that Polish history began 4000 years ago

 

[dutchking]

let me Start with Poland

Poland is one of the oldest places in the world. Poland began 4000 years ago when there were Polish Slav tribes inhabiting the area of the Vistula river.

Mieszko I King of Poland was Baptized and Christianity became Poland's Official Religion. The rest of europe was basically dying from the black death, but the Black Death did not reach Poland and Poland became prosperous and powerful.

After that, The Jagiellon dynasty began. Poland formed a union(then later a Commonwealth) with Lithuania. Lithuanian inhabited lands became part of the union/Commonwealth. (this is why in maps lithuania looks so big. the truth is, It wasn't.)

During the Golden Age. Poland became the largest country in all of europe. (except for Russia and Ottomans)

Battle of vienna. This is the battle that could've turned Austria into a muslim Country. Sobieski (notice the 'ski' at the end of the name. That symbolizes he's polish) King of Poland brought down a huge relief force of Poles, Prussians and Russians (mainly polish though) to save the Austrian Capital.

Russia, Prussia and Austria made a pact to "share" Poland between them. They Split Poland and that is the end of poland's history till WW1.

WW1 Poland fought and all. pretty much every country did. Nothing important here. At the end of the war, Poland Regained independence. This is the Good part. Poland didn't have all the land it originally owned at the end of the war. So the Bolshevik Wars started when Pilsudski in particular set out a series of campaigns to capture Russian lands for poland. And geuss what? We beated the russians more then ounce in the war. Poland at the end won against Russia.

the period between the wars was mainly to get the country back on track.

WW2 Started when Germany attacked poland and asked russia to join in. they split poland between the two of them. We could've atleast resisted on of them attacking. but 2? And the damned French and English didn't help us at all.

We never surrendered though. France did surrender in less time then the "defeat of poland" did. Even after that, we battled alongside and against many people in the war. the most famous battle is the battle of Monte Casino where nobody except the poles could take the Mountain. (i'm sure if britain or someone send a big enough force they would've tooken it). My great grand father alone fought in the battle of poland, Warsaw Uprising, Monte Casino, D-day, Market Garden and skirmishes in northern Africa.

geuss what? We set up to quote wars

I thought you said you were over this argument! I still know that therapist if you want... I didn't even have to read it to know it was another Poland post...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Shhh!!! We're starting another Quote Wars!

 

[dutchking]

Shhh!!! We're starting another Quote Wars!

Alright, I'll start one.
The Romans were a bunch of stupid barbarians who did nothing but run around and rape people...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Alright, I'll start one.
The Romans were a bunch of stupid barbarians who did nothing but run around and rape people...

I totally agree with this. Read my sig!

 

[dutchking]

I totally agree with this. Read my sig!

You should change it to:
Deal with it! The Romans were the fat raping psycho bastards of History!

 

[cybrxkhan]

i love starting Quote Wars. its fun, inspirational, educational, and we are all happy in the end. um... most of the time.

Also Cyberkhan we beated russia. How's that for beating a superpower.

Then we saved a superpower from becoming muslim.

we beat China at least five times, we beat America, we beat Mongolia three times, we kicked the French out, and we beat the Thai, Khmer, and Cham. hows that for beating superpowers AND regional powers.

then we saved the US from begin too arrogant.

The Romans were a bunch of stupid barbarians who did nothing but run around and rape people...

tsk tsk tsk. you ignorant little...

 

[dutchking]

tsk tsk tsk. you ignorant little...

I could say the same thing about China if you want!

 

[Legat]

It was. The superpower at the time was Austria. in fact the actual letter from the austrian king to Sobieski King of Poland, was "Please, Help not for the sake of Austria, But for the sake of Europe and the Christian Faith" Or something like that. I'll try to find the letter on wikipedia or something.

The only thing this quote proves is that he was scared. And saying something like "Please, help not for the sake of Austria, but for the sake of my beautiful castles." wouldn't have impressed the King of Poland.

And i'm sure that the area between ottoman conquest and the Nazi's were different. My guessing is that the area was more muslim then it is today. The Swastika must've scared them away

This makes me curious. Can you give me a source which proves that the majority of the people on the Balkans were muslims before WW2?

 

[cybrxkhan]

^let the Vietnamese do that...

The Chinese were a ruthless barbaric horde of arrogant little jerks and wicked wizards who loved to conquer little countries and force their culture and ways arrogantly upon them.

sounds familiar, eh?

(no insult to Chinese)

 

[TheLastOne36]

This makes me curious. Can you give me a source which proves that the majority of the people on the Balkans were muslims before WW2?

It was a joke. (a sad attempt at one atleast) if your that interested do it yourself.

 

[Legat]

Sometimes I wonder if all these discussions are just jokes and noone told me...

 

[LuKo]

The Romans were a bunch of stupid barbarians who did nothing but run around and rape people...

I hate you But i know what you was going to say- there were Romans AND a bunch of stupid barbarians...

 

[dutchking]

I hate you But i know what you was going to say- there were Romans AND a bunch of stupid barbarians...

Uhh...not exactly...I'm sticking with my previous statement!
BtW, if there were the Romans and a bunch of stupid barbarians...Poland would be included with the stupid barbarians...

The Chinese were a ruthless barbaric horde of arrogant little jerks and wicked wizards who loved to conquer little countries and force their culture and ways arrogantly upon them.

Still are!